S2 E02 | Crisp Business Spotlight

Luke W Russell:

Welcome to Lawful Good Powerful Partners. This is a series about interesting and caring folks that we know and trust whose journey has brought them to collaboration with the legal community. I’m your host, Luke W. Russell. I’m not a journalist. I’m not an attorney. I’m trained as a coach. I love human connection and that’s what you’re about to hear. Today, I’m chatting with Michael Mogill, one of our Lawful Good Powerful Partners. The goal of this conversation between Michael and I is to help listeners like you understand if Michael’s company, Crisp, has something to offer your law firm or someone you know.

Luke W Russell:

If you haven’t already listened to my interview with Michael about his life story and how Crisp came to be, you can hear that and so much more in the previous episode. As you can probably imagine, Lawful Good requires an enormous amount of resources. One way we’re making this show possible is by featuring people we know, like and trust, many of whom we have a financial referral relationship with. In other words, if after listening to this, you think, “You know what, I’d love to hire, or at least talk to Crisp,” let them know that you heard their Lawful Good interview and Crisp will financially support our show for each listener that hires them.

Luke W Russell:

This way, no one has to spend anything extra to support Lawful Good, and we’re able to do what we do best, telling and sharing people’s stories, as well as helping folks like you connect to powerful partners like Michael. Join me as we listen in to my conversation with Michael, where we’re discussing who Crisp is best suited for, who they’re not for and why a law firm may or may not want to hire them.

Luke W Russell:

Let’s say I’m a lawyer. And I’m thinking, “Okay, I’ve heard of this Crisp company. I’ve heard of Michael Mogill. What can these people do for me? Do they just do video?” What would you say to that person?

Michael Mogill:

Yeah. So look at Crisp as really a law firm growth company. And what that means is essentially what does it really take to help a law firm grow in a transformational way? And what we mean by that is something that’s not necessarily incremental, but much more exponential. And we look at that really as three pieces. One is obviously you’ve got to differentiate and stand out, like there’s got to be a way to communicate and convey your story. And given the amount of law firms and lawyers out there and the endless amount of choices that consumers have, how do you stand out amongst that in your market or even in the markets that you’re in.

Michael Mogill:

So on the one hand, that’s really video, that’s telling your story. And the next thing that comes after that is let’s say you have great content, but that content is only as good as its ability to get in front of your ideal client. So from that standpoint, we do the marketing primarily on social media and digital, and that’s much more like brand focused and really helping to establish the platform. But once you’ve got the content right, let’s say you’ve got the marketing right, oftentimes we find that while marketing tends to be the attractive, sexy thing of like saying, “Hey, I want leads. I want the phone to ring.”

Michael Mogill:

That’s fine. But at the root of it, really at the core of it is like what happens when the phone rings? Like, meaning that how are the phones answered? What does the firm, the foundation look like? How are cases moved forward? What is the leadership? What is the culture of that firm? And that’s really where the coaching piece comes in. And what we found is really going through all three iterations of the business, because we started as just a video company and just producing content, was that we’d solve one problem and then you’d create another one.

Michael Mogill:

You create great content, but then they’re like, “What do I do with it?” And then once you start marketing it, you’re saying, “Hey, this stuff’s working great.” But now we’re finding like we can’t scale the way we want to. Like internally, we’re starting to find that the root of really a lot of those issues is our culture isn’t right. The way our infrastructure isn’t right. So we now take this holistic approach where we address all three, which is the content, the marketing, and then focusing on the leadership, the people, and really the culture as a whole.

Luke W Russell:

I’ve noticed over the last several years, more companies using language, like we help law firms grow and moving from the like niche practice where they would service a more specific type, and now it’s more of a broader spectrum. What would you want to say to an attorney who who’s wondering, like is the power of Crisp getting diluted by splitting into these multiple areas versus doing what they’ve historically been well known for, which is video?

Michael Mogill:

Well, so I look at it from the standpoint, probably the exact opposite way of each of these came as an extension of like a need not being met. And then really at the core of it, I have found that you really need all three and that perhaps we were in the wrong, even from right out of the gate, focusing on one alone. Because on one hand, it’s like you’re solving one problem with a service. But at the core of it, I would say for most law firms, if you can get the people right in your law firm, get the leadership right, the culture right, most of the time you don’t even have a marketing problem after that.

Michael Mogill:

If you’ve got the right people in your firm, let’s say you’ve got the right attorneys, legal staff, the right people in marketing, the right operations people, and so on. I mean, we believe that at the root of any problem is people and then also at the root of any solution is people. And if you can get that aspect right where people say, “Hey, if I could only find the best people, if I could attract and retain the best people.” And if you solve that problem, it usually solves all the other ones. But oftentimes, I see companies focusing on strictly the marketing piece, which again is attractive because someone believes they may have a lead problem.

Michael Mogill:

They may think, I just need more leads or I need more calls. And most often what happens is if you solve that problem, they’ll say, “Well, I don’t like the leads anymore” or “I don’t like the calls” or whatever it is. And oftentimes I find that that’s addressing symptoms, but not really root problems.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. It’s interesting. As another person who’s in the legal marketing space, I know from talking to other companies, there are times in which we’ve seen something like this, nothing changes on the marketing end, but when the firm either switches their intake company or process or a software, or there’s so many different factors there, that all of a sudden there can be a much better conversion rate and it’s not always just on the marketing side. Not to dismiss the responsibility of marketing, but that there is so much more to it than just saying, “Hey, let’s go get great videos and then get it out there,” be a social with how you do it.

Luke W Russell:

It’s also like, hey, now once you’ve done all this work, like you’ve made this investment, here’s how you really get the maximum ROI from that.

Michael Mogill:

At the core of it, you really got to get to like, what is the root problem? Because a lot of times there’s like the symptoms where it says like, “Hey, we’re not bringing in like predictable cashflow into the business. We’re not signing cases as consistently as we would been like.” And people think, “Okay, well that must be a marketing problem. And if we solve this marketing problem, then perhaps that will solve the root issue.” And what we really see is, okay, maybe like the reputation of the firm is really proceeding the revenue.

Michael Mogill:

So meaning that if people don’t know that firm exists, or if that reputation isn’t sound and they’re not going to be attracting certain cases, but how do you create that reputation? How do you create that brand? Because it’s the same thing when it comes to attracting great talent. Like great attorneys and great trial attorneys can work for any law firm and they can be well compensated, but why would they want to work for your law firm in particular? And that really comes down to building the type of firm and the type of culture and the type of brand where the best want to be, and that’s where they want to work.

Michael Mogill:

So obviously there’s a lot of work that goes into that. But when you solve it at the root problem, I think that’s how the progress is really made as opposed to kind of like chasing like the next tactic or the next strategy and so on. And we’ve seen this play out. I mean, we work with firms that have recently started out and probably are under a million in revenue to firms over a million in revenue, firms that are eight figures in revenue. And at the core of it, it really is like, it’s very similar root problems.

Luke W Russell:

One of the things I think the whole American public has seen for decades is really a lot of really generic lawyer marketing, especially within the personal injury space in particular, where it’s very focused on injured call now, and that doesn’t tell a consumer why they should call you. And what it seems to me because I’ve been watching Crisp videos at least since 2017, so I’ve been following you guys for quite a while. And one of the things I have also talked a lot about to attorneys is this idea of like people don’t know, they don’t have any idea why you are better and why they should call you.

Luke W Russell:

And because arguably not every law firm is the best person for each individual case. And so consumers, and I think what attorneys miss sometimes is that consumers aren’t all satisfied with the generic message or just seeing your name the most. Obviously, branding and repetition is really important, but there’s additional layers, and that’s what you’re helping lawyers tell their story about.

Michael Mogill:

I think at the core of it, you’ve got to establish those connections. I mean, it’s the same thing as this podcast for example. If you don’t give people a reason to care, if that’s not conveyed with authenticity, if that’s not conveyed in a way where people can understand why is it that you do what you do, well, then you’re just another lawyer. To the general public who has a very difficult time discerning between who is a great attorney versus who’s a mediocre attorney, they really can’t tell the difference, especially when they have so many options. It’s like, how do you fight through that noise? We believe it’s through storytelling.

Luke W Russell:

Talk to me a little bit about who makes a really good client when you’re saying, these are people where we make a really big impact, but maybe you could first answer the question of who you’re not good for.

Michael Mogill:

Yeah, I’ll tell you what, we try to make this very, very clear up front. We are not for the firm owners that, one, are just looking for any silver bullet, if you will, of being able to just say, “Hey, I’m going to spend this amount of money and then transform everything in my practice and make everything great,” because that’s just not the way that it goes. It does require a level of investment of not just money, but also just time and the commitment, and also absentee owners, like those that want to write a check and go away, that are not actively engaged in their business. People that aren’t necessarily a good fit for us and we can’t help. Then also the ones that aren’t very actively engaged in their business.

Michael Mogill:

When I come across somebody that’s trying to get out of what they’re doing, and they’re saying, “I am so sick of this. I want to get out of this practice. I want to sell this practice.” There’s not necessarily anything wrong with that, but we like to work with people that like to be where they are. That are open-minded, obviously. That want to be able to try a new approach. For the most part, I would say a lot of it just really comes back to not having that level of commitment there to put in the work. Also, to stick with it and work through various challenges. There’s not one size fits all solution for any law firm, I mean, the same thing worked for every single firm. It doesn’t really work that way.

Michael Mogill:

I find that choosing the right partner is more about finding the type of partner that will work with you, that you can get good data back, that you can iterate and evolve and figure out, here’s the messaging that’s going to work best. Here’s the type of adsets that are going to work best. Here’s the strategies that might work best based on the various approaches that we’re taking. The first time right out of the gate may not be a home run, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s something wrong there. It just means that you get data back and that’s feedback and you can continue to evolve. We just look for people who are serious about where it is that they want to go, and they’re committed to doing the work necessary to get there.

Luke W Russell:

How do you figure out what to sell someone who, says, calls up Crisp or fills out a form on your website and say, “Hey, I’m interested.” What’s your process for figuring out if they need X package or C package?

Michael Mogill:

I mean, obviously starts with just a series of questions to basically figure out what are their goals, where are they at in their firm? What are their challenges? Meaning that, if they’re doing marketing, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, what their goals are. They want to build this eight figure practice and they want to basically figure out, what are the things that we need to do? What’s their team composition look like? What resources they have, what don’t they have. It’s really learning about, at the core of it what their vision is for their practice, and seeing if what we do can fit into that, because it’s not always the case. I mean, someone may say, “Look, we’re not really interested in building any brand. I just want the phone to ring more.” You could say, “Hey, you could do paper click, you could do lead services.” There’s a lot of things like that you can build.

Michael Mogill:

But when I come across someone that says, “I really believe in the work that we do, we want to make a much greater impact in our community. We want to help more people. I want empower my team members. I really believe in what we’re trying to do. And I want this to be something that even extends beyond me, to a point where there’s this legacy that’s built.” Okay. Now that gets interesting. Now it means that, let’s do this right. Let’s build the proper foundation. Let’s actually scale this thing in the right way. I think at the core of it, because I’m thinking about this, it’s really just figuring out who is committed to their practice for the long term, versus more interested in short term to drivers.

Michael Mogill:

If we determine that, okay, I think that this person’s looking for is really something much more short term in terms of driving that practice forward, then we may not be the best fit because it’s going to require… I mean, we like to get pretty comprehensive in the work that we do and that’s okay, because that’s obviously not for everyone. But with us you can just do just a video and stand out and differentiate, but I can assure you that the video’s not as effective if you don’t actually place that content and get it in front of your ideal client. And then that in itself is not as effective if the foundation of the firm isn’t structured right. If there’s not processes behind things, if the culture isn’t right, if they’re not attracting the right people, if they’re not retaining those individuals and if they’re not investing in them.

Michael Mogill:

Because I think at the core of it, to our firm owners, I mean, they’re the CEOs of their law firms. That extends beyond just producing video content or marketing the content. It really comes down to, I really need to understand how all this stuff works and how all these dynamics apply to one another to build a great practice.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Especially within the contingency of fee based world they’re is a lot. I mean, these are people who are having to front load their expenses in hopes that they get paid later. And then there’s a lot of vendors who want long term contracts and especially even SEO. SEO I think is a good example of where you have to invest in the long run to rank, period. You don’t invest in it and get results tomorrow. But there’s also the fact that the lawyer has to invest and put in now and guarantee their marketing dollars to you. If a person comes to you and does want more of a comprehensive approach, are they typically expected to do a longer term agreement?

Michael Mogill:

Yes. That is a function of just making that long term commitment. That’s another area where I’d say that if that’s not for you, then we’re probably not a fit it. The reason why we do is, when I say a commitment is a year, two years or more, and the reason for that is that, the things that we’re talking about doing. I mean, for example, a brand isn’t built overnight. If someone doesn’t have that commitment to building that brand, if they’re going to get skittish in a few weeks or in a month or two months, we’d rather just say upfront, “Hey, probably that’s not for you,” because just, I mean, there’s certain laws of the universe, in the sense that immutable laws, that you can’t build a brand in two weeks or something like that.

Michael Mogill:

That’s going to be competitive with the large firms in your market and help you differentiate and stand out when these firms have been building theirs for 10 years. But it does require this long term commitment. I find that if that commitment isn’t there on the front end going in, if someone’s saying that like, “Hey, I just want to test the waters and dip my toe in.” Those people, that’s never going to work. If they say, “Hey, I’m going to make this vested commitment and I’m going to show up in order to participate. I’m going to give you feedback.” We see this more as, instead of a vendor relationship, more of like a partnership, if you will. Then that can work. There’s a future there, certainly. That’s how that success is possible.

Michael Mogill:

For me, this has happened. Over the years I’ve learned in the sense of, when I look at who are our most successful clients, and what did that engagement look like? Versus the ones that let’s say we’re not a successful, we work with someone that may not have aligned with our values, for example, or was not respectful to our team, or we’ve had the fire clients. A lot of it stems of really properly vetting on the front end and making sure that that right value set is there. That right mindset is there, and the commitment is there to really that long term focus and not just with us, but really to their practice. I want to be clear there, and it’s not so much about skirting around responsibility, not giving people options and choices. That’s not really what it is.

Michael Mogill:

It’s just more so saying that this vision that you’ve outlined for your practice, how committed are you to it? Because if you are committed to it, then you understand that this is going to be something that you’ll want to work on continuously, year or more. But if you just need to see some immediate, get rich quick type results, I mean, as my much as it pains me to tell you that’s not possible, go find out on your own. You don’t have to believe me.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. What I’m hearing you say is there’s a certain responsibility also to your clients, and the people you haven’t sold yet that are asking you questions, is that if you really want to give them the best shot, you have said, you’re looking and it’s going, here’s what we’ve done and what worked. If we let you do this for three months and quit, it’s, really you should probably not invest it with us at all because now you’re wasting those dollars rather than investing them in that long term value. Also, I mean, it’s more chaotic internally when clients come and go. And so the way you get the best of Crisp and the way the law firm shows up the best is when you both say, “Hey, we’re going to do this for a year, two years or however long.” That’s where the magic happens, and it’s really not magic, it’s just systematic and diligent.

Michael Mogill:

It’s the professional approach that essentially says on the front end, this is what it takes. If you’re committed to that, let’s do it. If you’re not committed to that, we want to be respectful of your time and money as well, and not set you up with the false expectation.

Luke W Russell:

I love that. Now, if someone comes to you and you’re figuring out, because you mentioned you have the videos, that you have the marketing of those videos and you also have the coaching. How does a person know which of those services they’re going to need from you? I’m guessing you’re probably going to say that comes down to that conversation. You a questionnaire and have a conversation with them to figure out really what you have to offer and what their real needs are. Is that pretty accurate?

Michael Mogill:

Well, I would say from a coaching standpoint, I would argue that we all need coaching. Tom Brady has a coach, I have a coach, but I do think that upfront that could be a more challenging proposition if someone’s coming to you and saying, well, I just want to differentiate and stand out. You’re saying, okay, on the coaching side, could you benefit from a community of like-minded ambitious firm owners and be able to learn all the leadership aspects of the business and be able to grow that way? Yeah, sure, but I want to solve the marketing problem first. Sometimes for us, especially to help to build some trust, a lot of times it starts like, hey, let’s start working together. We can create this great content for you. We can start placing and marketing this content. You can ascend to the other things.

Michael Mogill:

Now there’s going to be ones that come in right out of the gate and say, I want to do this right. Let’s set me up because all three integrate, but it’s not something that we ever force on anybody. I would just say that at the core of it we can, in a way, just start off with a small of an engagement as producing a video, that brand video for their website that helps them differentiate and stand out and tell their story. They can get an opportunity to work with our team and just from their experience, just be able to determine whether it makes sense to make a greater investment and a greater commitment. We do still offer that, but you look at the Ascension of the sense of we have this content, then it’s placing the content, but then at the core of it, it’s really figuring out how can I be a better leader and how do I invest in my people?

Luke W Russell:

A moment ago you said some people want to start with a smaller engagement and then you said some people want to, “do it right”. I just want to ask you about that because I imagine some people might hear that and think, well, if I’m not going to come spend all my money with Crisp, then I don’t know if it’s really worth it.

Michael Mogill:

If you are looking at it in the standpoint of saying, how can I start to really think like a market leader because the decisions that you’re making today have gotten you to where you are today and if you want to get to, let’s say some place that you’ve never been, I almost think to a degree and almost as audacious, if you will, to believe that you yourself know how to get to a place that you’ve never been to and you know how to take your organization there. When I say do it right, it’s like, why not be empowered with that knowledge and information and then also have the accountability and the support structure around all these things that you’re doing to make sure that you’re continuously moving in the right direction and to have that support, so you don’t have to do it alone. That’s what I really mean about doing it right because in the absence of that accountability piece and in the absence of that community piece and so on, in a way you’re oftentimes operating in a vacuum.

Michael Mogill:

Our average growth rate, for example, of one of our coaching clients over the past two years, was over a million dollars and that was during COVID times. That was like 2020 to 2021, but we look at that and we say, well, why is that? It’s at a time in the world where people were really struggling and there was so much fear and people were going on defense, these guys were going on offense, men and women. They were investing in their firms, they were like investing in their people, they were building out processes and infrastructure, they were doubling down on marketing investments and they found themselves in a much better place at the end of 2020 and going into the new year.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Really, you make the biggest impact per dollar on your ROI for your clients who are all in, but the people who are saying, you know what, let’s start with the video engagement, let’s start with a slower pace. You’re driving results for those people, but what would you want to say to the person who’s like, Michael, I like you, you seem great, this seems really cool, but I’m not sure I’m ready to make that commitment to go all in right now?

Michael Mogill:

There’s two sides to this one. One, I would say is, is now a good time? What I would really say is, okay, that’s fine. I completely respect that and if someone’s not ready, they’re not ready, but again, to me, it comes back to a function of how committed are they to where they want to go? Some people have varying levels of ambition and varying levels of places they want to take themselves and their practice and if they’re happy where they’re at right now and they’re content, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. We started this conversation talking about almost this transformative goal in which we look at it as, that’s got to be something that changes your life.

Michael Mogill:

For example, if you’re a practice that’s at a million dollars in revenue, growing by a hundred thousand dollars, that may not change your life in the sense that may not empower you to do anything different, but let’s say you went from 1 million to 2 million in revenue. Now that allows you, let’s say to hire certain trial attorneys that free up your time in certain ways or support staff or be able to open up a second office or make some sort of impact in your community or take your family to Disney World or whatever it might be, now that becomes a worthy goal, but it’s like, well, how are we going to get there because that’s not just incremental, that requires us to double.

Michael Mogill:

At the core of it, I think it really starts at the decision of, how committed am I to getting to where I’m going? If there is that full commitment, whether it’s with us or with anybody else, I think it really does, at some point, make sense to go all in with money and time because it’s hard to get anywhere alone. Let me put it that way. It’s hard to get anywhere alone with limited knowledge and information and it’s much easier when you learn from people who’ve done it before.

Luke W Russell:

Some people think Crisp videos and by some I have no idea how many. I’ve heard attorneys comment on the idea that Crisp videos are really expensive. Maybe they’re overpriced. Maybe it’s a, oh, I won a big settlement and now I’m going to go spend it on Crisp. What would you say to that?

Michael Mogill:

I’d say they are expensive, but it really just comes down to what is it worth to you to be able to differentiate and stand out? What is the value of you being able to present yourself in a way that helps you not only convert and attract to certain clients, but at the core of it, what’s your brand worth to you? There’s obviously ways to do things on the cheap. You could film a video on an iPhone and I think there’s a time and a place for those videos as it relates to probably more candid content and things like that, but when it’s your brand, the challenge to me is always when someone says, I want to attract the most discerning clients and I want these seven and eight figure cases and I want to stand out into my market where I’ve got some competitors spending millions of dollars a month. If you want to do that, at some point you’re going to have to differentiate and stand out, but if you’re saying I want the best clients, but you don’t want to invest in your own firm, then I do think there’s a disconnect there.

Michael Mogill:

It really does come down to what is your brand worth to you? At the core of things, brand is everything. At the end of the day it is platform agnostic. The platforms may change, marketing tactics and strategies will change, but brand, at its core, is really your reputation. At some point, whether it’s now or years from now or what have you, the brand is the only thing that’s left.

Luke W Russell:

For the person who’s listened, they’ve heard some of these different aspects of Crisp and they’re like, okay, I’m interested in at least taking the next step. I either know I want to hire Crisp or I want to have at least a discussion where we go through this and maybe figure out what Crisp is thinking they should do for me. Does a person go to your website? Is there something you want them to read first?

Michael Mogill:

Yeah. I would start by reading our book, The Game Changing Attorney because this was something that, for me, was a labor of love. Over several years I interviewed over a hundred of our clients and just asked them, what are you doing to differentiate and stand out and attract the best cases? We put it in the book form so that someone could read this book and really do it selves. Crisp exists for the people that don’t want to do it themselves, but the information is out there, so you can learn about our process and how to do it and really determine for yourself whether you want to work with a company to do those things, but at least know how it all works. I think being informed is extremely important. Being knowledgeable of just brand and marketing and client acquisition, all those things. I don’t think you should just leave that to your marketing company. I do think you’re a great partner, if you yourself, as the business owner, are informed of those things and at least then understand how they work and of course can also hold any partner you work with accountable.

Luke W Russell:

Now for the person who may be a little bit more like me and is like, seriously, read a book? I’d rather just hop on a phone. What options are there for people like that?

Michael Mogill:

You could, of course, reach out to our team. You can go visit our website, you can set up a strategy session, do those things, but I would encourage everybody and again, I’m not trying to like unsell anybody, but I do think it’s important that you really know the company and the partner that you work with and you learn about them. We’ve got a great book that’s out. We’ve got a podcast, the Game Changing attorney podcast, by the same name. Just really learn about that. Also, perhaps when you reach out to our teams, speak with a few of our clients too, hear about their experience. We’re happy to give you reference for any practice area, any type of market, rural and urban and you can hear from them because if you’re going to make a serious commitment, I’d be the same way. I wouldn’t just do it because it sounds good. I think it’s important to be informed and just know, hey, this is the right partner for me.

Michael Mogill:

We like it when people come in and they want jump in with both feet. That they’re excited, that they’re engaged, they’re decisive, if you will. Our best and most committed clients, they’re decisive. They know what they want, they know where they want to go and that it’s not so much a, oh, well should I do it? Am I serious about my vision? Am I serious about where I want to take my practice? I think if that’s where you’re at, really do the right due diligence in choosing the right partner. And that’s why we have avenues, whether it’s the book, the podcast, the conference, all these different things but, of course, you can go to our website and obviously schedule a strategy session too.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. In the book do you have, because I know you have some of this, I believe on your website, just kind of more some of the case studies and so people can hear like, “Here’s where people were before using Crisp and here’s how their practice transformed throughout the collaboration with Crisp?”

Michael Mogill:

Absolutely. I mean, look, the stories often go like this, “Before, aimless, lost, wandering through the desert thinking how could I ever get to where I’m going? And this guide comes in, Crisp, and transforms their life.” But look, the reality of it is most of the time, what happens is our clients are really, really great attorneys that care deeply about their clients. And they came out of law school, they learned the practice of law, but in terms of what it means to be a great marketer and to run a great business, that’s an area where they want to be able to grow and do better. Unfortunately, it’s not a level playing field, right? They don’t have the resources to compete with firms that are spending millions of dollars in marketing. And yet they want to be able to positively impact their communities.

Michael Mogill:

So we’ve long said that the best cases go to the best marketers, which is this unfortunate truth, which I don’t like. I believe the best cases should go to the best attorneys, but it’s not reality when the best marketers are able to end so much money and can command so much attention. And they spend all the money on pay-per-click or billboards, or whatever it is that they’re doing. So, it almost creates this responsibility that great lawyers have a duty to advertise, right? Because if they don’t, the ones that they don’t like, they’re going to do it anyway.

Michael Mogill:

Our vision is to help the best marketers and the best attorneys be one in the same, to help the best attorneys become those great marketers because in our view, they’re doing such great work and they really can scale and expand their impact. So at the core of it, our clients are people that care deeply about their clients and communities. And we want to help more of those people, but it really does start with taking this stuff seriously and making that commitment to say, “Hey, I’ve got to start running my practice like a business.” And two, marketing is not a bad thing. It’s not an evil thing. There’s not at the core of it. Now at this point, it is well understood that attorneys must get their name out there in order to get business.

Michael Mogill:

So how you do that, where you do that, what mediums, what platforms, but getting that message, right, which is your value opposition, and then being able to amplify it, I don’t see anything wrong with that if what you’re doing, benefits people.

Luke W Russell:

I love it. And who should come to any of the Crisp events? I know we have one coming up shortly, but then there are other ones in the future, different ones that you’ve done over the years. Who are these events really meant for?

Michael Mogill:

So, if there was a psychiatric ward of law firm owners, there would all gather at the Crisp Summit because this is for the freaks. Somebody asked me this the other day, they’re like, “Who is it for?” And I’m like, “This is for the people that just want to be the best at what they do. They want to dominate their market.” And when I say this, I don’t mean to offend anybody, but this is how our target audience thinks. They don’t want to just compete. They don’t want to just do an okay job. They want to be the best at what they do, and they’re paying attention to everything from their their client experience, to the way in which they’re marketing, to the way in which they’re leading their teams and their cultures. So this is for really the outliers.

Michael Mogill:

I’ll tell you a great way to know if this is you. If anyone has ever told you in your life that they’re worried about you, or that they believe that you should do less, or that you are unreasonable, or that, “Hey, that sounds crazy,” or whatever it is. You may have these aspirations of where you want to take your practice, and they think, “Hey, settle down now. That’s nuts. That’s not meant for people like you,” this is an event for you because as we all start somewhere, I think everybody has their ground zero. I mean, you know I certainly have my ground zero. But if you have have this level of ambition where you believe that your best days can be ahead of you, you just need to be empowered with the right information, the right community, the right support system, all those different things, then I’d say this is a great event for you because this is the type of stuff we’re talking about.

Luke W Russell:

Now, is there anything for the person listening that you’d like to share that I haven’t probed?

Michael Mogill:

I’ll say one last thing. And this is something that I spoke about at a previous conference. And I’ve just noticed after the last couple of years in the conversations I’ve been having on the podcast with just various industry leaders, top law firm owners, I mean, everybody from the Mark Lanier’s of the world, the Mike Papantonio’s, or the Joe Fried’s, and just all across the board, and it was so fascinating to me in the sense that for some of these people, when they don’t know one another, they’re in different markets, they’re in maybe in different practice areas, and yet they think about, and they see things in a very, very similar way. And yet the ones that I saw that were struggling the most, the ones that when I speak with, with attorneys that they weren’t able to overcome the adversities that they faced, they all thought in similar ways. And the way they saw the world could not be more different. Right?

Michael Mogill:

So, one group, the one that was succeeding, would see people and hiring as investments, the same way they would look at marketing as an investment. The other group would look at those things as costs, for example. And the key differentiator, the X factor was their ability to make these courageous decisions in the face of being fearful. So meaning that without any guarantee of outcome, without knowing for sure, 100% that this is where this would lead me, they still took those steps and they still made those decisions. And it was just this X factor that could only be built through making other courageous decisions.

Michael Mogill:

So this same thing I find goes for marketing and a lot business decisions. Generally in marketing, the things that are for sure, 100% foolproof have the lowest gain, because it’s like investing in bonds. So if you are serious about it, and whether it’s with us or whether it’s with anybody else because I think there’s a lot of great companies out there, I will say that at some point, you’ve got to admit if you’re serious about where you want to go.

Luke W Russell:

If you are thinking, “Yeah. I’d like to speak with this Crisp team,” or want to check out more information on the work they do, go over to Crisp.co. That’s Crisp.co. You can also learn more about Michael’s book and his podcast by going to gamechangingattorney.com. Or if you just want to ask Michael a question directly, text lawful good, to him at 404 531-7691. Again, text lawful good, to him at 404 531-7691, which we’ll also have in the show notes, and he’ll get back to you.

Luke W Russell:

If you do reach out to Crisp, please let them know that you decided to contact them after listening to the Lawful Good interviews. By doing so, you are helping support the podcast and the work we are doing in the world.

Luke W Russell:

Thanks so much for listening to us this week. This podcast is produced by Kirsten Stock, edited by Kendall Perkinson, and mastered by Guido Bertollini. A special thanks to the companies that make this project possible, Russell Media and the SEO Police. You can learn more about these groups by visiting our website, lawfulgoodpodcast.com. I’m your host, Luke W. Russell. And you’ve been listening to Lawful Good Powerful Partners.