S3 E08 | Je Yon Jung

Luke W Russell:

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Je Yon Jung:

The law is such an intimidating profession, and you do have all these incredibly smart people who came from long lineages of lawyers, and IV leagues, and degrees. And many of them are truly brilliant, but many of them have been faking it, and riding on the coattails of whoever in their legacy generation allowed them that opportunity. And so the older I get, I realize that had I known how much knowledge I had and how much ability I had to be just as good, if not better.

Luke W Russell:

Welcome to Lawful Good, a show about lawyers and the trials they face inside and outside the courtroom. I’m your host, Luke W Russell. I’m not a journalist. I’m not an attorney. I’m trained as a coach. I love human connection, and that’s what you are about to hear. My guest today is Je Yon Jung, Senior Council at May Lightfoot. Je Yon has more than two decades of legal experience, including work in consumer protection, civil rights, discrimination, and financial services. What all of this diverse work has in common is a dedication to serving communities that have been left out or abused by the legal injustice systems.

Luke W Russell:

Je Yon immigrated to the United States with her family as a small child. From her earliest memories, she was certain that she wanted to be a lawyer. Though the patriarchal tradition of Korean culture left her with little support for the same vision, Je Yon’s determination landed her in the department of justice only one year out of law school. Her work has now branched into the mass tort space with the complex and ongoing Zantac litigation. In this interview, we’ll discuss how Rodney King changed the trajectory of Je Yon’s career, the value of friendships, and how she came to know so much about soccer.

Luke W Russell:

Je Yon, you grew up in Colorado and your parents immigrated to the US when you were about two years old. Is that right?

Je Yon Jung:

I was actually around three. And so I immigrated with them, obviously, from Korea. I say about three because there’s a little bit of a mystery on exactly how old I am. When you’re born in Korea, you basically are one when you are born. And they also go by the lunar calendar. And I also think my parents, as immigrants, were anxious to get us into school as soon as possible. And so, I don’t know if I’ve ever had a formal birth certificate, but I think I was around three. It’s a long way of saying that.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. As the middle child, you had an older brother, a younger sister. Do I understand it right that you, growing up, would butt heads with your older brother quite a bit?

Je Yon Jung:

I think that’s probably true still to this day, but yes. So my older brother is two years approximately older than me. And then I have a younger sister who’s about five and a half years younger than me, and she was born in the United States. So my brother and I, I think, we didn’t have a particularly close relationship. I think in the Korean culture that I was raised in as a very young child and in America, my parents still very much applied the Korean traditions. And that was very much male dominated, male centered, patriarchy of where boys were just different, and girls were raised really not in the same way that boys are raised. So it was a conflict, I think, for that reason more than anything else is, that there was a fundamental difference of treatment.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Did you have any strong female role models growing up?

Je Yon Jung:

That’s a good question. I think that my mom, as a Korean woman, was extremely strong. And I think, seeing my aunt, and my mom, and my grandmother basically hold the family together when they are immigrants to a brand new country, don’t know the language, don’t have a college degree, don’t have a professional degree, we’re not wealthy, I think just that strength in and of itself of what these women did to raise their family and to provide for them. So yes, those were strong role models, but I think, again, I think the paradigm or the context is very different in how we talk about a strong female role model in America versus what did you learn from in just your household and the cultural implications and potential conflicts with what we imagine American concepts of a strong female role model would be.

Luke W Russell:

Growing up, I know your father was a machinist. At what point did your family start your first restaurant? Because I understand that your family was in the restaurant business as well.

Je Yon Jung:

They were. But before my family went into the restaurant business, actually my dad went from being a machinist to a cobbler. So he was a shoe repairman. And so I think as soon as they could, after they made some money and started to learn a little bit of the language, I think they saved in order to open up a shoe repair shop. And I think with a lot of immigrants, Korean immigrants, during those times in the ’70s, there was a lot of teaching trades To other immigrants. And we were fortunate in that way. And for whatever reason, it’s shoe repair, dry cleaning. So shoe repair was one of those things where you didn’t have to have a college degree or a professional experience. And my dad learned how to be a shoe repairman. And so he opened up his first shoe repair shop, I want to say probably by the time I was in elementary school. And I think he had two or three shoe repairs before my mom got her first restaurant.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Was family dinner time an important part of the routine?

Je Yon Jung:

It’s funny, my parents worked a lot, so my brother and I were definitely your latchkey kids. So there wasn’t really the family dinners. And it’s funny you say that because I now am married and have three kids of my own. And we are very cognizant of having meals together, even with our schedule, and to have that time. But as a child, we were very much latchkey children. And then when we’re old enough, we were required to go, and work at the restaurant, and do those types of chores and duties.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. I understand you were cooking, delivering food. Can you take us back to that restaurant? Can we go through the front door? And what was the layout like ? What was the food on the tables?

Je Yon Jung:

My mom’s first restaurant… I talked about my dad’s shoe repairs. My mom’s first restaurant was a restaurant very near my high school in Sheridan, Colorado. And it was called the Tastee Oriental Barbecue, and so many things wrong with that title when you look back, but it used to be a Tastee Freeze, the old, I guess, dessert ice cream shop called Tastee Freeze, which you may not know anything about.

Luke W Russell:

No.

Je Yon Jung:

So it was Tastee with the double E. And so I think my mom, because she was buying the restaurant building, she went with that, and it was called Tastee Oriental Barbecue. And back then Oriental was much more accepted than it is today. And so my mom actually opened that when I was in sixth or seventh grade. And it was literally across the street from my middle school. And it wasn’t a sit down fancy restaurant. It was definitely come up to the counter order fast food-ish because my mom made almost everything by order, so it wasn’t that fast food, but there were no waitresses in that of the light, but she was always an amazing cook. And she had always been renowned for her ability to make really delicious Korean food. So she added Korean items to the menu.

Je Yon Jung:

Now, this is around right 1980, early ’80s. And the Korean food is not as popular back then as it is now, but she added things a bulgogi sandwich, and she added other spice to the things on the menu. And of course, with every Korean restaurant back then you always have to add some Chinese food because that’s what people are familiar with is the Chinese food. Yeah. And she definitely did that as well.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. I understand you ended up as a kiddo working quite a bit. Did you ever resent having to be part of the family business?

Je Yon Jung:

Oh, yeah. All the time. I was not the dutiful daughter that really always felt no compunction about having to work. Yeah. I was really resentful because none of my other friends had to work. None of my other friends had to give up after school activities to work. And I didn’t get paid, so there was really no incentive. But listen, I mean, I knew I had to do, and I really didn’t feel I had much of a choice, but definitely, I didn’t love it. But it also, in hindsight, it prepared me to work hard and to work early, very early on in my childhood. So I guess there were some benefits to it.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Were you pretty strong headed as a child?

Je Yon Jung:

I think some people might say I was, yes.

Luke W Russell:

Did that ever get you in trouble at home or at school?

Je Yon Jung:

I think it got me in trouble at both places. I think, until my elementary school years, I was pretty quiet. I read a lot. I was voracious about reading books, and I was very quiet, and shy, and I don’t think I was in myself yet. Middle school, I think that’s when I started to get a little bit more strong willed about what I believed was right and fair. And so that’s when I think I knew I wanted to be a lawyer around probably fourth or fifth grade. And so I think that’s when my path started getting clearer for me.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Was there a moment? Because I know your friends have said at least by 12, and so you’re saying elementary. Was there a show or what was that spark to see lawyer?

Je Yon Jung:

I wish I had a really cool story as to why, what inspired me or who inspired me. And honestly, I don’t remember other than I think LA Law was big at that time. And I saw women. Now, granted, they were white women on the show, but I saw women in courtrooms and having a command of the language and command of a courtroom, convincing people about what their evidence showed. And so that’s the only memory I have about what my first exposure was because my family knew no lawyers. I had never met a lawyer. I didn’t even know, really, to the extent of what types of different lawyers there were or what even was required to be a lawyer. The response was disbelief that I could be a lawyer. And again, not because they were mean-spirited and not because my mom didn’t want me to be a lawyer. She just didn’t believe that it was possible.

Luke W Russell:

And did you, as a young child, were you able to… I’m not sure what the right question is here, but were you aware of the assimilation challenges that your parents were going through and maybe even recognizing that was also what you were going through?

Je Yon Jung:

Yeah. When I look at it in hindsight, I think that I was aware of how different it was for me versus the other kids I was going to school with, the majority of which were non-Korean, non-immigrants majority of which were white. And so I think I understood fundamentally there was a difference between what they did at school and how their home life was versus what my home life was. And so at school, we were all kids, and we were able to learn, and we all played the same games for the most part, but I definitely recognized, particularly, probably in late elementary, early middle school, that my home life was very different from what many of my friends and peers home life was.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. I’m guessing probably people made fun of your parents because they didn’t speak a lot of English. Is that accurate?

Je Yon Jung:

Oh, yeah. I mean, there is definitely a lot of the language issues, the cultural issues, even my parents opening their own stores with the limited English that they had. I mean, it’s difficult to learn the language at all, but to be in your 40s and coming into a totally different country. So there was a lot of that. I remember one time my mom was at the restaurant late at night, and we actually, in the area we lived in, it also was very close to a mental health facility. And it wasn’t the safest part of town either. And I think that there were several times that the store was robbed or someone came in and actually exposed himself to my mom in the back of the kitchen one time. And my little sister actually was there coloring in one of the booths. It could have gotten a lot worse.

Je Yon Jung:

So just things that, where I know some guys had come in and done a dine and dash, and whether they would’ve done that to somebody else that was not a Korean immigrant woman. Of course, my mom being the woman that she is, she chased after them because she wanted her $10. Not the smartest thing. And she actually, I think, held onto the door, and they took off, and she fell, and scraped her face. So there’s definitely those memories where it would’ve been easier if my parents spoke English fluently, and or were white or knew the cultural requirements at that time. It probably would’ve been a lot easier.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. I’m thinking about your earlier comment and also about strong female role models in the current cultural context in America, but I’m imagining your mom holding this door to get the money. That’s strength. I don’t mean just physically, but I just mean that’s a real powerful statement of standing up for one self, for you to have that in your life.

Je Yon Jung:

Yeah. And she didn’t even really think about it. I mean, and of course, we’re like, “Why would you do that? Are you crazy? You could’ve been hurt.” But her point was, it wasn’t fair. They received food and they didn’t pay, or they tried to steal for me. And the only way she knew… Because she couldn’t verbally have a conversation and convinced them otherwise. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Right.

Je Yon Jung:

And it’s funny because now that you say that, I think of a similar situation that happened to me. Here I am. I’m already a lawyer. I speak the language. I’m very clear on the dangers. And I actually almost did the same thing in a situation where I was traveling for work for the Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division. And I had a case, in Hawaii, of all places, and I was there and I believe I had gone to sleep pretty early, but it was dark. It was maybe 8:00 or 9:00 PM. And someone had actually come into my room.

Je Yon Jung:

Long story short. I didn’t know what was going to happen to me that night. I didn’t know if I was going to be sexually assaulted. That’s what I thought was going to happen. I know I was up maybe nine or 10 flights. So it was either jump out the balcony or head to the door where he was in the bathroom, closer to the door to the room. Yeah. And I could hear rustling in the bathroom. So I decided, instead of flying over the balcony, I went to the door. And then he ran past me, and he had my purse, and he had my Palm Pilot. That’s how long ago it was. And I think he had my wallet. He ran past me. I actually instinctively just ran after him.

Je Yon Jung:

So I did exactly what I thought my mom shouldn’t have done, now in hindsight, but then I guess I did the same thing because I just wanted it back. And he eventually threw it at me, and told me to shut up, and then he kept running. Apparently, I handled it in almost the same way that my mother did several years later.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Thinking about your sense of injustice. And I know when it came to your high school graduation, you stood up, you went and argued and challenged the school board to change the day because it had been scheduled for a Thursday night. And you’re saying, “Hey, many of us working class families, people can’t attend this.” One, could you take me back to that moment? And then, two, are there any other instances when you’re like, “Yeah, man. There I was going up and standing up for situations that maybe I didn’t understand even what I was challenging,” or maybe you did?

Je Yon Jung:

Yeah. It’s funny. The high school graduation issue, it truly was, who has graduations in the middle of the week? And maybe it’s more popular than I thought, but for me, again, I was in a situation where my family worked pretty much seven days a week. So even a weekend would’ve been difficult, but it surely was difficult during the weekday. It was quite a financial burden to shut the restaurant and, or the shoe repair down. And I think I just felt it just wasn’t necessary that it didn’t have to be on a Thursday evening. And we had the facility available, and it was at our high school, so what’s the big deal?

Je Yon Jung:

And so then I believe I talked to some folks, and they said, “Well, it’s always been this way. And the only way you can change it is you go to the school board.” So I said, okay, well let me get… And I think I was required to get a petition. And I got people to sign it. And other people were like, “Oh. They didn’t really care either way because their parents were going to come. But they’re like, “Okay, that would be cool. We can actually have more graduation parties if it was on the weekend.” So I got people to sign the petition. And then I had to go and present to the school board to get it changed. And again, I had been told, well, it’s always been this way. So that’s why it is the way it is, but no one could really give me a good explanation as to why it had been that way and why it didn’t need to change. But I had the burden of showing why it should change and why it shouldn’t be the way it was.

Je Yon Jung:

But I went and argued it. And I think I lost three to two, so I lost by one vote. So it was okay. I think that was my first taste of seeing what the process for appealing to legislative bodies or the powers of authority on making change and policy changes. Again, not really knowing that’s what I was doing, but I remember that was probably my earliest experience with that.

Luke W Russell:

So you graduated high school, and you head off. You stay at a university in Colorado for your undergraduate at University of Boulder, Colorado, where you studied philosophy in communications. At this point, you’re headed toward that lawyer track. You mentioned earlier, your family’s initial response was disbelief. Do you feel you both maybe are getting a little more support for your future? And also, did you have a say in what you’re studying at this point?

Je Yon Jung:

Yeah. By the time I graduated high school, I was very, very clear. I had known, like I said, since fifth grade about that I wanted to go to law school. So I knew I was going, but I didn’t really understand the college university track, and neither did my parents. I didn’t understand the FAFSA. I had to fill that out on my own, the essays. I didn’t actually even realize that I could apply outside of Colorado. I know that sounds strange, but it just didn’t come to me that I would travel outside of the state to go to college, but I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. And at that point, I was very clear that I wanted to be a lawyer that worked with children’s rights, with civil rights of some kind, and that that was the type of lawyer I wanted to be. As far as support, I think, by this time, I’m very crystal clear. I didn’t give a shit. Can I say that?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah, Whatever you want.

Je Yon Jung:

Okay. I didn’t really need to rely on anyone anymore because, at that point, I’m done with high school. I was singularly focused that I wanted to go to law school and screw everyone else who thought I couldn’t do it. And it didn’t really matter anymore because I had been through middle school, and high school, and all the disparities with what a girl should and shouldn’t do. So, at that point, I had had so much conflict regarding the gender roles and gender expectations that I truly probably went too far on the other side of basically screw, well screw all of you. This is what I’m going to do. So I went to Boulder.

Je Yon Jung:

And Rodney King happened when I was at Boulder at CU Boulder. And I remember the classes I was taking, the people I was meeting, the professors I was being influenced by, realizing that, okay, this is becoming a lot more, a burning passion to go into civil rights. And when Rodney King happened, it was just like, oh, my God. It was my first real taste of student protests. It was my first taste of what’s happening on the national scene, what’s happening with law enforcement, what’s happening on race. But I remember Rodney King being, my generation at that time, a turning point for what I was realizing was happening in the rest of the world.

Luke W Russell:

Did you meet anyone? Whether there were peers or professors that really helped mold you and maybe open you up to new possibilities or perspectives?

Je Yon Jung:

I’ve just been really, really lucky. I remember the teachers in my life. I remember Susan and Jimmy who were my good friends’ parents, who were the ones that helped me with the school graduation and had been my second… They were my American parents. So through them, I actually, I think maybe, for good or for bad, they showed me a very different life, your quintessential vision of what this perfect little American family is. And so they, obviously, showed me so much unconditional love even from a very, very young age. So I think they had a lot to do with that. I’ll get emotional talking about them. I think I was fortunate in college that I had some amazing professors who worked in critical race theory. I was very fortunate to have that exposure, but I also knew that there was something so much bigger than that, and that I needed to get out of Colorado and to get out of the shelter that I had and the space that I had with my surroundings and my experiences.

Luke W Russell:

I was told that after you graduated from University of Boulder, you skipped graduation, got in your car, and drove across the country to live with your best friend, Aaron.

Je Yon Jung:

Yeah.

Luke W Russell:

Can you take me back to that?

Je Yon Jung:

Yes. I graduated three and a half years. And so I fast tracked it because, again, it was a stepping stone to get to law school to get to be a lawyer. And so I fast tracked it. And at that time, I still had a lot of conflicts at home and my mom had actually opened up a restaurant in Boulder. It had come to where I was going to school and I think there was an expectation that I would work there. I didn’t do it. I paid for my own college and I had to pay for all of my expenses and all of my tuition through loans or whatever.

Je Yon Jung:

But, yes, I graduated in three-and-a-half years and I skipped the graduation and I basically said, “Okay, six months to figure out where I’m going to go to law school, and there’s nowhere I’d rather be than there in West Virginia.” So I took off and drove cross-country and went to Wheeling, West Virginia, to live with my second family. I did that for eight or nine months, and that was an experience in and of itself, to live in West Virginia. I did that while I was applying and visiting law schools and figuring that part out.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. And then you end up going to Ohio, the Ohio State University, Moritz College of Law. How did you end up there of… Ohio doesn’t seem like the place for the woman who’s like, “I want to go out and, I don’t know, have a different experience from Colorado.”

Je Yon Jung:

Right. Well, for me it was different. For me anything outside of Colorado was different, but yet it was still safe and this is why. Because I went to West Virginia and I applied to several schools out on the East Coast, and they were… Again, Susan Currans, my second mom, went to those college interviews with me. We drove through ice storms going to those interviews. A few of them told me that I was just not the type of candidate that their school was looking for. And so at the end of the day Ohio State was one of them that I applied to. It was a public university. It was ranked very well and affordable. It was also close to West Virginia.

Je Yon Jung:

So we went and it happened to be that Aaron’s aunt, Susan Currans’s sister, Linda, Linda and Tom Seemon, they actually lived in Columbus. We went to look for apartments and she didn’t really like too many of them and at some point she said, “Why don’t you just come live with me for a couple of months until you find a place?” And I knew her as aunt Linda and uncle Tom, and they were nice, but I wasn’t that close to them, but I knew that they were family, and I thought it was just going to be a couple of months. So I was like, “Okay, well, until we find a good place, I’ll go.”

Je Yon Jung:

At that point she had two sons who were out of the house already. They were older and they had moved out of the house, and so it was just the two of them. And so she was ecstatic to have someone in the house, and as she always says, it was great to have a girl, a female, because she said, the boys just don’t talk to you as much as the daughters and the girls, is what she says. So, anyway, I went there for a couple of months and then a couple of months ended up being three years. I didn’t have to pay rent so I could focus on law school and studying. I would come home to a home-cooked meal.

Luke W Russell:

Wow. Yeah.

Je Yon Jung:

It was just amazing.

Luke W Russell:

Okay. So you graduate from law school and you end up working at the US Department of Justice in the Civil Rights Division. You spent nearly 14 years here. Do you remember your first day?

Je Yon Jung:

I do. Actually in between law school and the Department of Justice, I actually clerked for a year for Linda Davis, Judge Davis. That was an amazing experience. That was in D.C. She actually was the Criminal Section Chief of the Civil Rights Division when Rodney King happened, so it’s kind of an interesting world, and how much there was influence. And so she was part of the Civil Rights case that went forward against the officers. So she was a judge there. I was her clerk. I was her second clerk.

Je Yon Jung:

And then I went into the honors program of the Department of Justice, and I went into the Housing Section. And I absolutely remember my first days there. I had a lot of people wondering how the hell I made it into the Civil Rights Division. It was traditionally very much an Ivy League position and I had not gone to an Ivy League. And so I remember one woman, I will not use her name, but I remember she stopped me, it was one of the first days in this Housing Section. And she asked me, “How did you get here? Who do you know?”

Luke W Russell:

Wow.

Je Yon Jung:

I was, like, “What do you mean how did I get here?” Feeling like I deserve to be here. And she said, “Well, you’re not Ivy League. You don’t have family that’s ever been lawyers. You don’t have high-powered family members as lawyers. So how’d you get here?” And she was dead serious.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. What made this your dream job?

Je Yon Jung:

Oh, gosh, I get to be a Civil Rights attorney on behalf of the United States government. I get to actually travel the country enforcing fair housing and public accommodations, meeting all kinds of different people who had been victims of discrimination in various forms. And I got to actually help them. I got to bring cases against the bad people and I represented the United States of America. I did that.

Luke W Russell:

Wow. Yeah. How did your work shift over the course of your career at the DOJ?

Je Yon Jung:

I went into the Department of Justice in 1997. That was during Clinton. I think Janet Reno was there at the early parts of my stage. So I went through many different administrations, and after I think seven or eight years in the Housing Section, I actually moved over to the Special Litigation Section where I did primarily police misconduct work and freedom of access to clinic entrances, the FACE Act work and Civil Rights of Institutionalized Persons Act. So I did work regarding Civil Rights and jails, hospitals, mental health hospitals, prisons, juvenile facilities. So looking at medical care uses of force in those facilities and that type of thing. So it shifted in that way. And then I was exposed much more to the police work, which is I think what I focus on today, and was a transition from the Civil Rights work that I was doing.

Je Yon Jung:

I think one of the most memorable, for good or for bad, cases that I did in the latter years of my Civil Rights Division career involved the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office regarding… The United States government had basically given the County Sheriff’s Office authority to enforce immigration laws on the United States’ behalf. And in our mind, or in my mind, I should say, in violation of Constitutional rights and liberties. I remember I had my second child during it, and it was a very difficult time to be pregnant and working on such an emotionally tumultuous case. It was a difficult case. There was a lot of personal attacks that were made against me by the sheriff, as well as his friends and the media. So it was a difficult case that was actually, let me just suffice to say that I left. That was the last case I had and I left in 2011 and went over to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

Luke W Russell:

So you mentioned, you’re pregnant with your second child at this point. Can you take me back somewhere to the mid to late 2000s when you married your husband? Can you take me back to that?

Je Yon Jung:

So the Currens’s, obviously, have a big theme throughout my life story. And my husband, William Lozano, he was the best friend of Erin Currans’s husband. They played soccer together and we met, William and I, at Erin and Patrick’s wedding shower. And that’s how we met. He had grown up in the Virginia area. His family is from El Salvador. We met and we dated for a minute, but it didn’t seem to quite work out, and we stayed friends. And then I think a few years later we came back together and decided, “Well, maybe we should be married.” That’s the short version. That’s probably the version that’s safest to tell at this point. But, yeah. And then we got married in 2006.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. So you talk about leaving the DOJ. Was it that case that really left you just like, “You know what? I need a change. I need a change a pace.” Maybe you wanted to be less a focal point of attacks? Or what do you think was maybe that shift in prioritization of where you wanted to focus?

Je Yon Jung:

Yeah, I think that’s a good question, Luke. Thinking back at that time, the one thing I remember most was how personally traumatic that case was. And having to deal with people who would… They didn’t threaten me directly, but it was clear that they knew who I was. I didn’t feel protected. My reputation was attacked. My ethics was attacked. All of it obviously never came to fruition, but that was their M.O. Right? That’s how they played. And this was the same individual who would bring ethics violations against any judge who went against him.

Je Yon Jung:

Anybody who went against him in that state would suffer the consequences. It was difficult because at that point I had one small child, and I had another one on the way, and I think just the emotional toil that it took, it no longer felt like I was doing more good than harm. And then at that point now my family had to come into the calculation of what was being harmed, right? Now it became an issue of now I have children, I have a husband, I was traveling a lot, and I didn’t feel like the personal attacks against me were part of the job.

Luke W Russell:

Right.

Je Yon Jung:

There were a lot of distractions on the case. And listen, I’m not the one to make all the political decisions and I never want to be that person. But I think that the case was difficult for me to continue to feel like I was having value, even as a lawyer. And so it was time for me to move on.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. So you mentioned you go over to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau for several years. What was the landscape like for your work? What were you doing here?

Je Yon Jung:

It was great. It was like the new startup, right? It was a new startup of a federal agency. It was the first of its kind. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was brand new just in July of 2011, I believe. And so I was coming in on the ground floor of kind of building it up.

Luke W Russell:

Wow. Yeah.

Je Yon Jung:

And so I went over to the office of Fair Lending to one of the amazing leaders there, who’s still there, Patrice Ficklin. At some point I became the West Region Fair Lending Council out in San Francisco. I came home, talked to my husband and said, “Listen, I know this is kind of crazy, but would you want to go out to San Francisco and take the kids and start a life on the West Coast?” And he was all in, and we decided to pick up and we moved to San Francisco. So we were there for… Unfortunately we didn’t actually live in San Francisco proper, which I think is an important clarification because had I lived in San Francisco, I think I would’ve been much happier, but we lived out in the suburbs of the Bay Area.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. What exactly did your job look like on a day-to-day basis? Were you handling cases? Was it more like policy?

Je Yon Jung:

The bureau was created with the Office of Fair Lending to straddle both supervision and enforcement. So we were able to bring enforcement actions as well as be part of the supervision teams, which meant that we were part of the examinations of financial institutions to look at what their fair lending policies were, their programs, how they were doing and all of that.

Luke W Russell:

Got it. Yeah.

Je Yon Jung:

And so it was cool because I got to do both.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. And so then, around 2019 you decided to make some career changes. First you ended up starting Veritas Pointe and you also joined May Lightfoot a few months after that. What preceded this? So you’re working for the government and now you’re working on your own. That’s a pretty big career change.

Je Yon Jung:

Yeah. So Trump happened-

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Je Yon Jung:

… in 2018. And as a result of that, the office of Fair Lending was pretty much shut down for all intents and purposes. At least as it was when I was there. The manner in which it existed when I was there was dismantled. I didn’t have to leave, but I couldn’t stay. So at that point, given the circumstances, again, we kind of figured out what the best options were for us, and I had never worked in a law firm, ever. I hadn’t interned in one. I hadn’t summered in one, so I really actually didn’t know what a law firm life would be like, but I pretty much knew I didn’t think I’d ever want to do that.

Je Yon Jung:

But there was an opportunity to become a general council for a nonbank mortgage company in Southern California. They were looking for a chief risk officer and a general counsel that could come in and provide the compliance framework and compliance management system that I had been doing and working on for those years at the CFPB. So I decided to do that. Also, truth be told, in California you cannot waive in on the bar. You have to retake the bar. I was at this point, what, 20 years out. I was not planning on taking a bar. There was no way I was going to take the California bar. So as a general counsel, you don’t have to retake the bar, so that was one positive aspect of it.

Je Yon Jung:

So the other thing was, in Southern California my family had all eventually had been moved to Southern California. So my mom and dad were here. My sister, my brother. My parents were getting older and my mom has Alzheimer’s and my sister had been bearing a lot of the burden. And while I wasn’t going to necessarily be the one to bear the burden, but I felt like coming to support her and my kids having exposure to their aunt and their grandmother and grandfather was important to me. So we made the move. Now at this point, we now have a third child. It was an incredible learning experience to be on that side of the private side of things, the corporate side of things, and to have that exposure.

Je Yon Jung:

But then I did it last year and decided I wanted to go down my own, which was a really difficult decision to make but of course my husband has always been very supportive and he had been a stay-at-home dad raising our three kids since we had moved up to the Bay Area. That was a huge decision to make, to say, “Okay, well, health insurance, salary, all of that, let’s throw caution to the wind.” And it’s not like we had a trust fund or a lot of savings, but my soul was really just getting sucked dry by the work and I really wanted to do something that was more aligned with my spirit. But I also knew that meant I had to take the California bar. And I took the bar, which was very different to take 20-plus years later with three children.

Luke W Russell:

Oh, boy.

Je Yon Jung:

But I passed fortunately. And so right after that, then I jumped right back into being a lawyer, California-bar lawyer and shifted to go back to Civil Rights work, primarily police misconduct. Obviously the police misconduct was not drying up anytime soon and as much as I’d love to be without my trade, that was the area that I knew I could bring value to and what I wanted to do. And I was able to join forces with May Lightfoot and they’re still a firm in D.C. And I partnered up with her and do some of the work.

Luke W Russell:

How did you meet LaRuby May?

Je Yon Jung:

LaRuby and I have known each other, gosh, we were just thinking about this the other day. I think since around 1998, ’99. So shortly after I started in the Civil Rights Division, she lived in D.C. She lived in a house with a bunch of roommates called T-street. I’m not going to give too much up on that, but that T-street house was fun. I met her through good friends who actually lived with her and obviously she and I became good friends. And when she knew I had moved and that I was thinking of going out on my own and taking the bar, she offered. She had a firm and she said, “Listen, come and partner with us and we’ll work together and see if we can get some cases.”

Luke W Russell:

When we come back, Je Yon will explain how a federal judge is balancing diversity with meritocracy in the Zantac case. And what so many people get wrong about confidence. Stay with us. I’m Luke W. Russell, and you are listening to Lawful Good.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 1:

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Luke W Russell:

When we left off, Je Yon took us through most of her career from the Department of Justice to May Lightfoot where she still serves as Senior Counsel. As we pick up the conversation, she explains how she got involved in the Zantac litigation without MDL experience and why she wouldn’t change the strife and inequities of her youth. Je Yon, just before the break you were telling us how you got to know LaRuby May. I understand that she’s the one who helped you get involved in the mass tort space by bringing you to the Mass Torts Made Perfect conference put on by Levin Papantonio Rafferty. Is that right?

Je Yon Jung:

I remember her telling me, “It’s amazing this conference and everything that you learn and everybody that’s there,” and she really wanted me to start getting into it as well. And one of the things we talked about was the very amazing experiences, all the things that were happening at MTMP, but also the lack of diversity and representation there, and how it really is an area where we need to get more Black and brown people involved. And so it was definitely a totally new area for me, for sure. And that’s how I first came to be introduced to it by LaRuby.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. And so you step into the space and what were some of your first thoughts as far as it’s like a shift in the style of cases and the way the litigation it goes through? Were you excited? Were you like, “Oh, this is interesting.” Was it intellectually fun? What were you also maybe a little hesitant about?

Je Yon Jung:

Yeah. I mean, I think all of the above. I think it was very overwhelming initially. Just going to the MTMP, that was really my first foray into mass torts. And so just seeing the conference, the different tracks and the seminars that they offer, meeting the different people, but it really was like, “Okay.” I think if I had known what I know now, I would’ve been scared out of my mind and I never would’ve done it. Now, I had done pattern-or-practice investigations and litigation. We had litigated against governments, prisons, police departments, all of the above, right? So as far as complex multi-state, multi-party litigation, that was something that I had been used to and the massive discovery obligations and responsibilities.

Je Yon Jung:

What had happened with Zantac is, that was in the early stages of being established as an MDL, as a multi-district litigation, and Judge Rosenberg had been selected as the federal judge overseeing that MDL. It was in the early stages and she basically made a call out for attorneys of diverse backgrounds and experiences to apply. Judge Rosenberg actually interviewed everybody who applied through the program, and I think I was one of the few that had never had an MDL experience. But I had 21, 22 years under my belt, so I hoped that that was enough to help. I think also given May Lightfoot’s commitment and my career and commitment to social justice and Civil Rights advocacy, and that piece definitely for us was a part and parcel to participating in Zantac as well, to making sure that mass tort actions actually include and incorporate the types of communities that we represented and the type of communities that we were familiar with.

Je Yon Jung:

This all happened in May of 2020, which is at the very beginning of COVID, so that was also a very strange experience because from the beginning everything was done by Zoom. So it was just an interesting experience because not only was I new to MDL and the whole processes, but I had to learn it remotely. I think that was good and bad because it allowed me to spend the time instead of traveling and spending the money to travel, we were actually stuck at home and working a lot more probably than we would have if we were traveling, to be honest.

Je Yon Jung:

And then we were able to finally meet the whole group of us in late 2021 for the first time after we had been working together for, I think, 18-plus months. So it was interesting because it’s like we had been dating on Tinder for 18 months and never actually met up, and it was pretty amazing to finally get to hug and say hello and put the real faces to the voices and get to know them in person.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. So despite us having had lots of people who participate in MDLs on the show, we’ve never really talked about the leadership aspect of it. And I’m curious because I know some of our listeners have no idea. For starters what’s just the application process like?

Je Yon Jung:

So my whole universe of experience is one.

Luke W Russell:

Right. So this judge?

Je Yon Jung:

But, yeah, with this judge, and I do think I do have to give full credit to judge Rosenberg here, because I think that Judge Rosenberg definitely had a mission. The fact that she carved out a piece of that leadership to say, but we also want to start giving a pathway and an entrance to other individuals who would not otherwise, haven’t even applied. And I think a lot of your listeners may actually say, “Well, I would never apply because I’ve never done it before.” Right? But she actually, like I said, she opened that pathway and gave people an opportunity to say, “Tell me why your skills are transferable?” Even if you’ve never done an MDL PSC. And I think that there are so many lawyers out there who do have transferable skills who have been doing PI cases, individual PI cases, for example. So things that involve complex litigation and allows them to transfer those skills and qualifications into an MDL. And so, and you might not otherwise think, “Hey, I could do this, but you can.”

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. All right. Sometimes, I think people might look at judges who are prioritizing or, or ensuring diversities at the table. Sometimes people might say like, “Well, we want to make sure that we have the right lawyers there.” And I think one that’s lawyers have that exceptional skill sets. But what a cool thing to… Like with the judge from thinking like, how do we bring different voices to the table that are going to have new perspectives, have fresh insights, but also having people who have history with it? And then you get like this wonderful, well-rounded team, is maybe perhaps what I would suggest that you get by having new voices with also different lived experiences.

Je Yon Jung:

Absolutely. And I think the fresh perspective is definitely something that I think our PSC members would agree has happened with the LDC and just different approaches. Right. And because there’s always different ways to come at a problem. And with someone like me where I was pretty ignorant to how things are always done, right? You can go in and say, “Well, what about this?” And how about this issue? And in a similar situation I attacked it this way, and maybe it’ll work. Maybe it won’t. But I think that those fresh perspectives are welcome. However, I do think as you said, it’s really important that you have the people who are kind of the seasoned veterans to be a part of it because it’s so complicated and the defendants are so well-financed and prepared and so you really do need that combination and just setting a whole group of new diverse lawyers to task on an MDL would be a recipe for disaster.

Je Yon Jung:

And I think, I spoke about this with my colleague, Nicola at a conference before that you don’t want to set them up for failure either, right? You don’t want to say, “Oh, we care about diversity.” Diversity is great. Let’s put some diverse on this panel and then go forth and be on this panel and get all the benefits. It doesn’t work that way and that’s just going to set you up for failure. And so I think it’s important that any MDL judge that goes forward with this kind of paradigm to incorporate checks and balances, to make sure there is the type of incorporation and mentorship.

Je Yon Jung:

And I say, mentorship, not as in go, and then you become part of this intern program because having been part of an MDL, there is no time for holding someone’s hand. And teaching them basics, right? But there is mentorship in saying, “Okay, come along. Well, let’s figure this out. Let’s do this. Let’s figure out the task and get them done together and make sure that everyone’s checking in.” So in that way, I just think it’s really important that you don’t set someone up for failure to say, “Oh, see diversity doesn’t work because these people got on and they really didn’t even know what they were doing.” And so this is a horrible program. So I think it’s a fine balance that you have to walk.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. You touched on this earlier, but I’d love for you to kind maybe address it again is for the attorney who looks almost doesn’t even register in their brain when they see something that the leadership process is starting and they don’t even stop to think like, ‘Well, maybe I should be on that.” What would you say to the person who has the experience, but maybe isn’t used to thinking of themselves as like, that they should be at the table?

Je Yon Jung:

I would say for that individual, if you’re interested in it, but you’re not ready to dive into a PSC position, which I totally get. I think, partnering with a firm that does get on a PSC, and seeing if you could participate and help them with the type of work that they’re doing and seeing if you can get that type of involvement on a different level so that you can see without having full PSC responsibility, but you can see what’s entailed and then make a decision, whether that’s something you can jump in more fully later. But I mean, for the people who have litigated, for example, I know there’s lots of diverse attorneys out there who have had 10, 15, 20 plus years of litigation, right? And civil litigation, who would be amazing at this process.

Je Yon Jung:

The experience of dealing with just massive volume of discovery, massive volume of documents, it’s the same case, right? And whether it’s a PI case, a police case, you’re dealing with certain facts that you have to show to prove that there was a claim, right? And so it’s the same recipe. You just have to figure out how to galvanize and amalgamate all that, those pieces of evidence and find them in thousands of pieces of discovery or depositions, pages of depositions and figure out how to make your case. You’re going to have to do it in a larger scale. And you’ll have a lot more defendants coming at you. And I mean, Zantac is probably one of the largest MDL as ever, given the fact that we have four brand manufacturers, and you’ve got over 40 years and you’ve got thousands of documents that are at issue, and thousands of plaintiffs. And so I do think it’s more a very complicated MDL in this case. And my understanding is that not many of them are this complicated.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. I know we’re still in the middle of this MDL. It’s a long process, but have you given any thought of like, is this something you think you might want to pursue again in the future?

Je Yon Jung:

I do. I do. And I think us and May Lightfoot, I know that my partner, LaRuby May, is also now on Paraquat PSC. And that happened recently after I was placed on Zantac. So I think for the firm generally too, I think it’s something we want to continue to pursue. I will be very candid with you. It is a very, very expensive endeavor. And I think that’s also another huge drawback for individuals who may say, “Hey, let’s get involved in MDL.” It’d be great if we can just say, “Hey, we’re qualified and we want to participate.” But something I did not know about before we got into this was the amount of money that is involved in the assessments. I mean, they make sense, right? Someone’s got to fund the litigation for the PSC to represent the thousands of plaintiffs out there. And so that litigation, that economic peace is daunting.

Je Yon Jung:

It is a pay to play type of a situation, which is another reason why I think there are so many firms or individuals of color who have more limited resources and can’t participate. And so it’s something that I hope, we can bridge that gap somehow, or maybe there’s some more alternative funding that can happen for individuals like this. That may not have the ready access to six, seven figure amounts and assessments. And so, it is difficult.

Je Yon Jung:

So yes, I would definitely want to participate. We want to continue, but it is a substantial economic outlay to do it. And so that’s something that I think we have to be very careful about which ones we choose and how we participate because of that, because you could go in and not get any of it back. And so that’s something that’s really important.

Luke W Russell:

What is it you think you bring as a Korean American woman, who is at the table representing thousands of Americans from all different walks of life and backgrounds. For you, what’s the importance and impact that you think maybe you bring to the litigation that someone else maybe doesn’t?

Je Yon Jung:

My particular background has always been in civil rights and social justice. So I’ve always fought for the little guy, to advocate on behalf of the people who are either voiceless, or marginalized, or seemingly, and I emphasize seemingly weaker than the opponent. And I think this cases, these types of cases are that, right? You have all these consumers who are just individuals, just regular folks who buy a drug, take a drug. They believe that it’s good for them.

Je Yon Jung:

They believe that the company’s going to have their best interests and that they’re doing it because they have an ailment or a particular issue that they want taken care of. And so for that to happen, and then to know against all of these gigantic, enormous, drug manufacturers who have all the knowledge who hold all the cards and who have an endless amount of money sometimes, seemingly that they’re the ones that you’re going after and nobody in their right mind Joe Schmoe down the street is not going to say, “Hey, today I’m going to sue GSK, or Pfizer, or Boehringer Ingelheim, or Sanofi,” like that’s just as a completely a non-starter.

Je Yon Jung:

And so in that way, I think my value is that I’ve spent over 20 years going after the people that we weren’t supposed to be able to go after. We weren’t supposed to be able to win against, and sometimes we don’t. But sometimes, you just need someone to advocate and be a voice and say what you did was wrong and we’re going to fight, and we’re going to let folks know what happened and how you wronged this individual. And the law is usually the poorest option, the last option, because litigation is never really a great option for anyone, but it’s oftentimes where folks are required to go because they have no other choice. And because that’s the only option left for them.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Something you said in there reminded me of a time, I was sitting on an airplane one time and this woman next to me starts talking to me, and we start chatting. She’s a drug rep for a company out of Germany. Somehow we end up on the topic of mass torts. And well first off, what I told her, I worked for a law firm that did mass tort litigation. She goes, “I guess everybody has to have a job.” And I was like, “Oh, I didn’t even start this conversation.” She says something I’m like… But what we see in the court documents are these things where the companies make these choices and she says they wouldn’t do that because that’s wrong.

Luke W Russell:

And I think it was your comment in there where people trust these drug companies to have their best interests at heart. And yet, I think the majority of people working for these companies. I’m optimistic and hope that’s they do, but I think a lot of the big picture decisions don’t have Americans and consumers’ interests at heart.

Je Yon Jung:

Yeah. I think it’s a business. I think it’s a business decision, right? And I think that’s the structure that is in place. And so it’s a business decision and I think there’s a cost benefit analysis that’s done. And I think that when you seeing so often in these types of products liability, or Mass Tort Litigation, you see that the cost of doing business is still very profitable for these companies. Even after they settle, or even after there’s these large damages, they still profited.

Je Yon Jung:

And so that’s a cost of doing business and they calculate that and incorporated into their product, into the pricing and into everything they do. And I don’t necessarily blame them for that piece of it. But when you know, or when you should have known that there was harm that could come to an individual because of your product. And you basically did the calculation of either timing when someone would figure it out, or timing as to when cancer would appear, or when you look at the number of consumers that you would profit from, and that the portion that would get injured by it is so much smaller or is a portion of that.

Je Yon Jung:

I think when you do that, knowing that there is going to be a subset of individuals who will be harmed in such a substantial fashion, either through death or cancer or injury or catastrophic injury. I think that’s where we need to do better as a society to make these companies accountable.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. So you talk about how you’ve spent a career in doing civil justice litigation and you’ve brought that perspective and experience to the mass tort space. And you’re also like showing up in spaces where people of color haven’t been a whole lot, and then you’re fighting to affect change. Do you ever stop and might be aware of the legacy that you’re building and creating?

Je Yon Jung:

Oh gosh. No. I don’t think of it. Listen, There are so many other people who are amazing and do work that is going to leave legacies beyond what I’ve done. I think, my most important piece is that whatever I contribute to society, and however I use my law degree and my legal experience is because there’s just no other path for me. And this is just what I love to do. And I could not envision and no-knocks to the people who do other type of law. But there’s just nothing… There’s no part of me that would want to do anything with the law other than fighting in the way that I have.

Je Yon Jung:

And if I ever stop practicing this type of law, I won’t go into any other law. I’ll go and open a coffee shop, or I don’t know, do something else. So whatever legacy, I guess, I’m leaving it’s going to be my children. And I just hope and pray that those kids understand what it means to be principled. And sometimes being principled means that you’re going to lose a lot, but that’s the path you have to stay on, no matter what. That’s what principle means. It doesn’t mean going with the wind or going where it’s easiest.

Luke W Russell:

Could you give me a specific example of, if you can think of something where you were like, “Oh wow, this is something I applied to the Zantac litigation,” specifically, that’s like something I’ve developed and honed in on my police misconduct work?

Je Yon Jung:

Without giving too much detail away. I think that there is a particular experience that I think, listen, with police misconduct work, or quite frankly, with any kind of complex or litigation or litigation against obstreperous defendants. You have this, who’s got the louder bark and who’s got the more intimidation factor. And I think for sure, I have gone up against the meanest, the most vindictive law enforcement individuals and some very famous ones. And I have had some pretty good experience of not backing down and not being intimidated by that.

Je Yon Jung:

That particular issue did come up in one of the discovery aspects. And I was a dog with a bone and I would not let it go. And I pursued it and I was a pain in their ass. And I fought through it and I ended up being just taking that issue all the way to the magistrate. And I think we succeeded in it.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Are you currently working on any police cases?

Je Yon Jung:

I am.

Luke W Russell:

I love to flip the question and say, is there anything you think like, that you’ve taken from your Zantac work and or maybe doing something a little different on your police cases?

Je Yon Jung:

That’s a good question. I think maybe in the area of experts, we definitely use experts in police cases, but I think the approach of the different areas of experts and the Daubert standard, I think, I’ve used those lessons in how I approach some of the expert witnesses in my police cases. So, yeah, I think it’s definitely a two-way street and every day I’m just hopefully getting better at being a litigator and hopefully being better as a trial attorney.

Luke W Russell:

When you look back over your legal career and you look at how your work shifted, and yet also is still in many ways, stayed the same at the heart of it. What do you love most about being a lawyer?

Je Yon Jung:

I love being able to use the craft, to vindicate people’s rights. I think it’s oftentimes been used in our history to take away rights and to diminish people’s rights. And I think using it to vindicate people’s rights and to actually expose the fact that people have so many more rights than they think that they’re entitled to, or that they’re used to being entitled to, or to receive, I think doing that is pure joy. I get that. If you have to litigate a case, it means that things didn’t go too well, right? Because the law is always going to be probably your last resort, but that last resort sometimes is the only thing people have.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. How do you balance your tenacity with kindness?

Je Yon Jung:

Well, that assumes that I am kind. But I have a hard time actually giving grace to a lot of people. And so I’m just going to expose that there and say that, I am tenacious. I am hard-headed. I am stubborn. I don’t know if I would describe myself as kind. I think that when I see a wrong, I’m pretty unapologetically unforgiving. And unable to give grace where I see intentional wrong. And maybe that’s good, maybe it’s probably more bad, but by the time I get involved in a lot of these cases, there’s been most likely a death. There’s most likely been an abuse of power. And that power, and that control, and that authority, will be used against me and the families I represent with impunity.

Je Yon Jung:

So I don’t really have the luxury in many of these cases to give too much away as far as compromise. And maybe that’s a bad approach, but for me, I know what my convictions are. I know that when I take cases and when I’ve seen what I have seen throughout my years of the systems, and the protections and the repeated tactics that have been used, it’s really hard. My patience is not as good as it used to be.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Okay. I want to move us over to what we call our high velocity round. I have a series of yes/no questions. And the rule is you can’t answer just yes or no. Like you can say yes or no, you just got to give me more than that sound good.

Je Yon Jung:

Sounds good.

Luke W Russell:

Okay. Can you tell us a story involving a potluck, a super bowl party, and a carrot?

Je Yon Jung:

Yes, I can. So my husband and I, when we, I said that we initially met during the bridal shower. We dated for a minute, and then we went our step separate ways for about two or three years. And in that two or three-year period, we would still see each other often with our friends, Aaron and Patrick. And he brought around a woman that he was dating at the time. And it was a super bowl party.

Je Yon Jung:

And there was lots of people around and we were remain friends, but he brought somebody around who in front of everybody there, fed him a carrot. And I think she even said, “Papi, do you want a carrot?” And I think that has been an ongoing joke, much to his chagrin, for our entire marriage. And anyone and everyone who is there or who has heard that story makes fun of carrots and him at every opportunity. And you will never find me feeding him a carrot and asking him if papi wants a carrot.

Luke W Russell:

I love it. And for the record he added himself on that story. Do you have a bucket list?

Je Yon Jung:

Sure. I have bucket list of like, things I’d love to do, but you know what? My true bucket list before I kick the bucket is to have some impact in this crazy world. To make this world a little bit better to live in, and this country to come to terms and to come with reckoning of what writing the wrongs. That’s what I hope, before I die I can see progress towards, and I know we’ve had a lot of progress. I’m not saying we have it, but it seems we’re going backwards in so many ways.

Luke W Russell:

Are you currently reading a good book?

Je Yon Jung:

Gosh. I wish I could have a really cool answer for this. And I don’t. I’m not reading the book right now, because I could barely stay awake. If I sit down and read, so I spend a lot of time reading during with my job and I love to read, as I said, I used to love doing it as a kid. And I don’t find as much time as I used to. To be able to read, for pleasure.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Can a bad hairdresser ruin a wedding day?

Je Yon Jung:

Well, not ruin a wedding day. She can make me swear. And I can say a few things and that type of thing, but weddings are just one day.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Have you ever, I don’t know, found yourself locked on a balcony while cookies were in the oven?

Je Yon Jung:

Wow. You must have really had fun with that person actually, or listening to that interview. So yes. We got locked out on a balcony one time. And Aaron and I, when we lived together, when we moved to DC and the firemen had to come because cookies were burning in our oven. And so the fireman had to come and I don’t think they broke down the door, but they’ve got in.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. On the outside, it looks like you were born with all this fierce determination and that you have everything together. Would you say you have it all together?

Je Yon Jung:

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I wish I did. Most days I’m on the verge of falling apart and that’s okay. I work harder now. I think in private practice than I ever have in my entire life for this sustained period of time. But I think it’s all worth it. And because I think that some parts of this country are on fire. I try to balance that with my kids and to make sure that I’m not making them suffer, but I don’t have it all together. And I don’t even know if many people in my life would say that I do.

Luke W Russell:

Were you born with confidence?

Je Yon Jung:

Absolutely not. And I am a firm believer that confidence, half of it is faking it. It really is. And the older I get and the more people I meet, especially lawyers, the more I realize that all the fears and insecurities that I had, or that many people have is really misplaced that there’s the law is such an intimidating profession, right? And you do have all these incredibly smart people who came from long lineages of lawyers and Ivy Leagues and degrees. And many of them are truly brilliant, but many of them have been faking it, and riding on the coattails of whoever in their legacy generation allowed them that opportunity. And so the older I get, I realize that had I known how much knowledge I had and how much ability I had to be just as good, if not better.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. What do you think about the Maya Angelo quote? “I got my own back.”

Je Yon Jung:

I absolutely. Absolutely. But I also believe that, gosh, I couldn’t be where I am without so many people having and they didn’t even know it, right? But people who just believed in you and who loved you, no matter what. Or who felt like you were going to be something. So I was fortunate. And so many of those people had nothing to do with being lawyers or anything like that, but just knowing that I’ve been very fortunate to meet people along the way of my life and the various stages of my life, that deeply influenced me to keep going on the path that I thought I was on. And to make sure that I didn’t get off track. That they made sure that I’m on that path.

Luke W Russell:

Have there ever been moments when you’ve thought about walking away and quitting the legal profession?

Je Yon Jung:

No, I don’t think so. I think I’ve always wanted to be a lawyer. I don’t know what else I would do. I don’t know what else I would be semi good at. I spent so much time now being a lawyer and so, no, I don’t think I’ve ever thought about walking away. Although, I don’t know that I want to do this for the rest of my life. It’s soul crushing sometimes and it’s traumatic.

Je Yon Jung:

I was talking to a friend that it’s just difficult to see the images that you see on a daily basis or speaking to people who are in so much pain or suffering. It is hard to kind of see that on a daily basis, and I don’t realize that until I talk to other people who say, my friend, who’s a therapist said to me, “You experience trauma every day.”

Luke W Russell:

Wow. Yeah.

Je Yon Jung:

And she’s right, but my trauma is nothing compared to the trauma that I’m trying to right. That I’m trying to advocate for. But she was like, “You have to take a step back and realize that you’re watching real videos of people getting shot. You’re watching real videos of people dying. You’re watching real videos of people getting assaulted.” When you think of it that way, and then you realize that we’re not compartmentalized to the point where I can shut that off when I have to then turn to soccer practice or cooking dinner. And I see that sometimes I do act out in ways because I’m frustrated with the case, then it does seep into the home, unfortunately.

Luke W Russell:

I am told that you are the type of person that you want to face tough situations with. And to quote one of your friends, she said, “I think probably the more favorite memories are being in very tough situations and having her,” you Je Yon, “by my side.”

Je Yon Jung:

Aw, that’s sweet. I mean, I am also very loyal and I feel that if, like I’ve said before, if I feel like someone has been wronged, I will go all out to protect. I will go all out to vindicate. And again, that may be a fault of mine, that I don’t know how to take the gas pedal, the foot off the gas pedal and to give people a chance. I think I have very little patience for injustice. And I think that that plays out in how I litigate and how I interact with people. How I make friendships and how I continue friendships is that it’s, I’m patient up to a point, but for things that are wrong and for things that need to be corrected, I’m just very impatient.

Luke W Russell:

You mentioned for starters, as a Korean immigrant, you were facing racism early on. And then you started studying systemic racism, critical race theory in your college studies. A lot of people get defensive when this topic gets brought up.

Je Yon Jung:

About critical race theory?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Je Yon Jung:

I don’t know who those people are, ’cause those are the type of people that I don’t really associate with. So this is what I mean by they could… But I don’t know what offense you can take by understanding histories and mechanisms to understand why we are where we are and how to fix them. And I don’t have all the answers by any means.

Luke W Russell:

Sure.

Je Yon Jung:

I don’t know how to fix our race issues. But I also think that we all need to be critical of ourselves, of anti-blackness in our communities, in our systems, because really, that’s at the core of, I think so much of our historical dysfunction.

Luke W Russell:

In your case work in your personal life, you’ve witnessed incredible prejudice. Do you carry anger that you don’t show?

Je Yon Jung:

Someone would say, I probably show it is I think where the theme of this may be going. And I think that there’s a lot of anger, but there’s also a lot of personal empathy. And I think that there’s… There was one experience that you made me think of that I hadn’t thought of in a while in college in Boulder. I remember I had a car up at school and I was out to or something and then I remember I came out and all of my headlights had been bashed in and there were pieces of it.

Je Yon Jung:

I remember there was a note on my car and the person said, “Please call me,” or “I was a witness. I saw what happened.” And apparently someone thought that I was someone who was taking away their job and that there were racial slurs made while this person was bashing my car and breaking it and felt that I was not entitled to be in that space.

Luke W Russell:

Wow.

Je Yon Jung:

So I think just those little things that you know when you hear the things that were said to my parents. The things that were said to me or all of those things kind of get wrapped into who we are. You can’t separate who you are today from all the experiences you have as a child, good or bad. Or products that we are of our families and our parents for good or bad. They make up who we are, and I don’t know that I would change that because I’m proud of kind of where I’ve landed and where I’m headed still.

Je Yon Jung:

But a lot of it does come with the fact that there was a lot of pain and a lot of strife and a lot of inequities that make me who I am. And I think determined to get to where I wanted to be, because there was a disbelief that I could get there.

Luke W Russell:

As someone who is white and grew up with all the privileges you can get in this country pretty much, I hear you. I’m not quite sure where I’m going with this statement, but I hear you call someone smashing in your headlights and using racial slurs, you call that little things like that. And I think, from my experience, if I had one thing like that in my life, that would seem a really big thing. I’m not sure exactly where I’m going with this, but I’ll toss it over to you.

Je Yon Jung:

No, that is interesting. I guess they are major in that they probably had a big impact, but they are not things that continue to define who I am.

Luke W Russell:

Some people might use you or others who would be like, hey, look, here’s Je Yon. She immigrated here at two and you’re proof that anyone can have anything they want in life.

Je Yon Jung:

Well, that’s not true. I don’t have everything I want in life. And so much of what I accomplished didn’t have to be so much of the first. I was the first woman in my entire family to go to college, let alone be a lawyer. Go to graduate school. I mean, and also I think embedded in that question is a bit of this model minority issue as well. With the kind of model minority a lot of times Asians are used as a wedge group to try to pit groups against each other. And I, for one, I reject that and I refuse to be used in that way.

Je Yon Jung:

I think it’s easier so many times for Asian Americans and immigrants in general, to not rock the boat because they are the other or they they feel that they are not a hundred percent a part of this country and entitled to have a hundred percent voice or a hundred percent participation. I reject that, and I think that they should rock the boat. They should make waves and they should make this country the country that they want it to be just as much as anybody else who’s been here for hundreds of years.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. What’s the value of a friendship?

Je Yon Jung:

They’re critical. They’re the things that have allowed me to continue in life. My friendships that I’ve made as I said earlier, I’m very loyal and I’m probably almost loyal to a fault. So if I actually let you in, because it’s hard to be let in. If I let you in, I will fight to the death for you. So I don’t have a lot of superficial friendships and I don’t really do well with small talk. And so I am really good at if there’s substance, there’s substance, if there’s not, then I don’t really have much time for you.

Je Yon Jung:

And that’s fine. You don’t have to have time for me either. I’m not saying that I’m the one that make those decisions, but I’m just very… I think friendships are really important and loyalty is very important and substance of those friendships. And they’re not worth it. They’re not worth it unless you’re going to actually have something of value.

Luke W Russell:

One of your friends, I believe it was Jessica. When we asked her if she had a favorite memory, her response was, “I have a thousand favorite memories.” How do you pick a good friend?

Je Yon Jung:

I think you pick a good friend by someone who makes you a better person. And someone who challenges you to be a better person. Who doesn’t just kind of tell you what you want to hear. A good friend is someone who is so loyal to you that they’ll tell you to your face when you’re wrong.

Luke W Russell:

Your sister, Je He, is that correct?

Je Yon Jung:

Right.

Luke W Russell:

Je He, she said you threw, when maybe she was 12, threw a surprise party for her. And she described it as one of the best moments with you. Can you take us back there?

Je Yon Jung:

Sure. I mean, again, our house, my parents worked all the time. We didn’t get birthday parties. We didn’t get birthday cakes. We didn’t get presents. We really didn’t get Christmas presents. It wasn’t that family. And I don’t even know if it’s a Korean culture. I don’t want to make the broad sweep that it was a Korean cultural thing because I’ve seen Korean families who do all those things, even in Korea. But my parents just didn’t and I think primarily because it was the grind. They were working, they were immigrants. They just worked a lot. So we never had those things.

Je Yon Jung:

And for my sister, once I got older, I was able to drive. I was in college. I had a little bit of money. I wanted to give my sister that. And again, because I now knew the American standard. I knew what everyone did in America. And so I had that Korean American exposure. But I think for my sister, she was younger. I raised her for the most part because they worked a lot. So that fell on me again, for good or for bad. So she was my little sister, but I was also very responsible for her in a way that felt very maternal and adult.

Luke W Russell:

And you now have, as you mentioned, three kids. Ages six to 13, I think?

Je Yon Jung:

That’s right.

Luke W Russell:

And if I understand right, they’re all named after Korean activists. Is that right?

Je Yon Jung:

So either activists or meanings in their names and the characters of their names. Some of my social justice activist friends actually helped me-

Luke W Russell:

Oh, wow.

Je Yon Jung:

… to name them. But so my oldest Tae-il, he is actually named after a labor activist in Korea who fought against child labor and he self-immolated actually, but he is famous as a labor leader. His Korean characters also mean the ultimate one. So he has a lot to live up to. So that’s the first one. Then the second one Dosan, that was the pen name of Ahn Changho, who was a freedom fighter who came to the United States and fought against the Japanese occupation. And Dosan was his pen name. So that’s my second child. And then Milae, that means the future. And I did want her to have an activist name, but I got shot down on that one. But it means the future.

Luke W Russell:

I understand that all of your kids play soccer, is that right?

Je Yon Jung:

Yes, and my husband.

Luke W Russell:

Yes. And so when you were younger and you imagined motherhood, did you imagine yourself as a quintessential American soccer mom? Do you have a minivan with a bumper sticker or something on it?

Je Yon Jung:

I did have a minivan when we lived in DC, but we got rid of the swagger wagon, as we called it. So we don’t have a minivan, but yes, all three of my children play soccer. I have very little choice because my husband was a D-one soccer player and he lives, breathes and eats soccer all day long. All day long. In fact, me calling it soccer instead of football may be verboten in this house. But yes, all three of my children are into it and they’re quite good at it.

Je Yon Jung:

My husband seems to take credit for all of their soccer skills, but I think my family has some athleticism that contributed to it as well. But yes, I never imagined that I would be a soccer mom, but I try to assue any soccer mom stereotypes as much as possible.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Just between us and the whole audience. Do you actually like soccer or did you just kind of fall into it?

Je Yon Jung:

Oh, I totally fell into it. Now, I have no choice. Now I’m completely into it because my kids are into it. It’s like when you’re in a torture room and they play certain radio or songs at you all day long. I have no choice but to know everything about soccer. Everything about the English Premier League. About all these players. About the rules and I’m still treated like I am the most non soccer knowledgeable mom on earth. But I actually probably know than more than many, many soccer moms because it has been attacking me and torturing me for a good 15 years now.

Luke W Russell:

Thinking back to your comments earlier about wanting to leave the world a better place for your children. What lessons are you hoping to pass on to them?

Je Yon Jung:

Believing in yourself and not looking for others for validation. For challenging everything. And this becomes difficult to have them understand that challenging is okay, but to not challenge their parents. So it’s hard to teach them that. But my middle son had a particularly difficult time during the Trump administration at the school that we’re in. We’re in a pretty conservative, white, predominantly white, predominantly Republican, I would say even predominantly Trump area, and he had a really difficult time at school.

Je Yon Jung:

But I was proud of him because as a fifth grader, he stood up to people because in principal he felt that what they were saying about people were wrong. The stereotypes that they were making were wrong, and he lost a lot of friends along the way. But I was proud of him because he had a conviction that I would never have had as a fifth grader. So that makes me proud. And it’s the lesson of kind of standing up for your principles. Standing up for people who maybe can’t stand up for themselves, but even if they can, the obligation you have to step in and stand up too.

Luke W Russell:

I saw a recent article that was talking about how we are in this period where everyone has rights, but no one has responsibilities.

Je Yon Jung:

That’s actually an interesting article. I think that is scary. And then what I meant earlier about kind of we’re taking steps backwards. That is that we are going in the wrong direction when we’re talking so much about what you believe you’re entitled to, without thought of community or without thought of history or without thought of how it affects other people. I don’t know.

Je Yon Jung:

It is about understanding if, as a society, Hobbes, the social contract that we have so that we don’t devolve into nasty, brutish, short society and community. And that’s the social contract we’re supposed to make. But the social contract, I think we need to look at whether it’s broken or not and how we fix it. And it’s not about individualized, what can I get out of this and how I can get the most out of it, damned be everybody else who may want a part of it?

Luke W Russell:

You mentioned your mother has Alzheimer’s. Are both your parents still living?

Je Yon Jung:

They are.

Luke W Russell:

How did your relationship as an adult, how did your relationship with them evolve from the hard-headed and maybe at times resentful youth to where you are today?

Je Yon Jung:

My relationship with my mom, and I’ll be honest that it’s not your typical American relationship. We’re not close. We never were close. It was a very transactional relationship. And it’s crazy to think of that. And it’s sad and I know people would be, oh, that’s so horrible. And it is, but I don’t know a lot about my mom’s background or history or anything like that, but I know that she had her own difficulties. And now that I’m a mom, there are things that we’re just wired differently.

Je Yon Jung:

I don’t know if her wiring was different for me because I was a girl and because she was a girl. And she was raised in a culture and a society that that’s all she knew was that girls had a certain place. That place is and was and always will be inferior to the place that men have. And so, I don’t know. It’s not a great relationship and that’s okay, I’ve come to terms with it because I now have my own children and I have have a daughter. And it’s a very, very different relationship with her than it was with my mom and I.

Luke W Russell:

Going back yet again, to your comment about, you want to have some impact to make the world a little better place to live in, and in this country to come to terms with writing the wrongs. How will you know when your work is done?

Je Yon Jung:

Oh, I don’t know that my work will ever be done. And I don’t know that we will ever be done. We’ll always have to continue to improve, and I don’t know that it’ll be in my lifetime. I doubt that it will be, but I hope that we’re at least taking steps forward and progress towards that. And like I said, because it seems like we’ve gone backwards in so many ways that we’ve lost ground. We’ve lost time. And so I don’t know when my work will be done.

Je Yon Jung:

I don’t know if it ever should be done. I don’t think we should ever think that our work can be done. We should always be trying to improve how we interact with people. And how we make our respective lives and communities better. I hope that we never stop trying to make it better.

Luke W Russell:

You mentioned earlier, you don’t want to be a lawyer for forever. What do you hope the future holds for you?

Je Yon Jung:

I have some dreams that I want to be an author somewhere. I’ll have the time and the fortune and the ability to write. I don’t know if I’m a good writer, but that’s something I would love to do in the future is to be able to have that, and to do that. And maybe stop litigating these cases and looking at 500,000 documents and taking depositions. The adversarial process is probably not how I want to spend my retirement, but I’ll do it as long as I’m effective.

Luke W Russell:

Okay, Je Yon, I want to fast forward to your 80th birthday celebration and people from all throughout your life are present. A gentle clinking on glass can be heard and a hush washes over the room. People raise their glasses to toast to you. What are three things you would hope they’d say about you?

Je Yon Jung:

That she was one tough bitch. That she tried her best to make the world a little bit better. And she had three amazing children who continued to grow to be really amazing people and to continue that legacy.

Luke W Russell:

To learn more about Je Yon, visit maylightfoot.com. A few notes before we wrap up. Please, check out our season three sponsors. Be sure to check out Jason Hennessey’s book titled, Law Firm, SEO. If you want the best knowledge available in the industry, to any plaintiff’s attorneys who have clients in need of simple interest loans, check out the milestonefoundation.org.

Luke W Russell:

If you’d like to join a growing group of attorneys that are actively working to improve their trial skills, head over to trialschool.org. For personal injury lawyers looking to acquire big cases through social media, visit sevenfigurecases.com. And if you want to experience rich human connection, join our LinkedIn group by going to joinbettertogether.com.

Luke W Russell:

Thanks so much for listening this week. This podcast is produced by Kirsten Stock, edited by Kendall Perkinson and mastered by and Guido Bertolini. I’m your host, Luke W Russell, and you’ve been listening to Lawful Good.