S3 E10 | Alexander Shunnarah

Alexander Shunnarah:

I’ll tell you every damn thing I know, because I know 99.9% of you ain’t going to do it anyway. So I mean, there ain’t no secrets. And so people will come up to me sometimes, look at us like, “I want to firm just like yours.” What I really want to say is, “Well, first of all, you’re going to need about $80 million tied up in your cases.” And so if I handed you $80 million blueprint, anybody, I don’t think one person would say, “You know what? Okay, now I want the firm just like you had.” When you could just take the $80 million and ride off in the sunset. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Welcome to Lawful Good, a show about lawyers and the trials they face inside and outside the courtroom. I’m your host, Luke W. Russell. I’m not a journalist. I’m not an attorney. I’m trained as a coach. I love human connection. And that’s what you are about to hear. My guest today is Alexander Shunnarah, known as master of marketing, among many personal injury attorneys. Alexander grew up in Alabama where he spent his weekends at flea markets with his father. Later, the two would buy and grow a chain of convenience stores, putting into practice the principles of sales and marketing that Alex had learned from a young age.

Luke W Russell:

Believing that Alex’s future could hold greater things, his father encouraged him to continue his education at law school, a path that would eventually lead him to one of the biggest personal injury brands in the south. In this interview, we discussed that journey, including his family’s migration from Palestine, the faith that still guides Alex daily, and the joys and tribulations of parenthood. Alex, it seems as though your faith has been a very important part of your life. Would you tell us about some of the early religious influences that shaped your beliefs?

Alexander Shunnarah:

I went to a private Southern Baptist kindergarten through eighth grade, which is a little different than … Because I was a Catholic school boy, meaning, so I have a lot of different religious affiliations. Meaning, I mean, so when you’re going between kindergarten and eighth grade to a Southern Baptist school, because, from the proximity of it, the public schools that were close to us was not the best of schools, I guess. And so they sent me to this school  even though it was against the Catholicism. So at home and at church where I’m an altar boy and going to my Catholic school. And then during Monday through Friday, I’m at this Southern Baptist school. I mean, they’re both Christians. I mean, Christian denominations. But then when I started telling my mother I wanted to be a Baptist preacher, she got nervous. And she sent me to a high school called John Carol Catholic High School, where you go and you wear the blue pants and the white shirt every day.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And so I get into Catholicism a hundred percent, which is Roman Catholic. But then soon as I get out of law school, I mean, as soon as I get out of high school, I’m back at Samford University here, which is another Christian college that’s moderate Baptist. Right? And at the same time, I’m still in my denomination, I’m going to church to the Catholic. And then I got married in the Catholic church, all those things. But around age 40, because then you get into the real world and you have your friends who are Buddhist and Judaism and the Muslim Brotherhood. Because I’m a Palestinian Christian, but-

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

90% of the Palestinians are Muslim. Right? And I represent half of them. Right? And they’re my friends. And then I took a lot of philosophy classes. Right? And then you get into the whole world. And now so about 40, I said, “You know what? I’m just going to become a non-denominational Christian.”

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And I ended up making that decision for my three daughters that I had. Cause I didn’t want them to grow up in the different doctrines. Right? Cause it really doesn’t matter, as long as, in my humble opinion that if you want to be a Christian, then that’s what you want to believe. The doctrine between Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal. Look, it’s just another reason for people to fight each other on a doctrine that’s immaterial, in my opinion.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Thinking about all these different influences and perspectives, do you think, thinking about your childhood, you were out and about with your dad, whether it was from the flea markets or the sales trips he would take, you were just around a lot of people. And I’m imagining you were meeting a lot of people who didn’t have the same background as you or have the same views or maybe even have the same color of skin. When you think back to your youth, were you aware that you were just kind of moving between groups of people with ease?

Alexander Shunnarah:

I think now that I reflect back on it, and that’s a great question, Luke. And I appreciate you asking me that. I know from a business standpoint and from a people standpoint, that has really helped me where I am today, right?

Luke W Russell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Because I’ve learned a bunch of people skills and obviously business skills being around different people. But I guess at the same time, it did influence me maybe not knowing that I was around it from a people’s perspective, I guess.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. I think there’s a certain beautiful thing in use. So my father’s trilingual. And I grew up being around immigrants, particularly Latino, Latinx immigrants. And so being around, when there are a lot of the anti-immigration stuff started coming through, I was used to this as a child, soaking it in being around different languages. When you think about, you were also, in your youth, around a lot of adults. And at a lot of times, children might feel more uncomfortable. Was that starting to maybe even seed confidence that, even if you didn’t realize it at the time, that this was just helping you build up a belief in yourself that you’d have to lean into later?

Alexander Shunnarah:

I think the fact that I was around people that were always older than me, it’s amazing how much you grow up faster mentally, I guess.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And even though they’re telling you stuff that like, “Well you’re younger. You’re just a kid.” Or, “You’re just 15 or you’re just 16.” But then you’re sitting there and you’re having the same type of conversations with them and you know in your mind and your heart, “No, I’m keeping up. And I’m actually making some good valid points here that are well thought out.” I think it does instill some confidence in you.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And then I guess my father and his peers were not very athletic type men, right? Were business men, right? For fun. What they did was gamble. You see that in the movies, like the Italian mobs and so forth and so on. So he was always playing poker or betting on football games or all that stuff. So I kind of, as a younger man, obviously had an affinity for it. Before I got married in 38, I played professional poker for about 10 or 12 years. And it’s like golf. I mean, the more hands you play, the better you become. And I became a student of that. But I haven’t touched a deck of cards in 15 years. And I sed to joke with Mitchell all the time. And I was like, “A guy that’s betting 2 million a month advertising doesn’t get a thrill anymore betting a hundred dollars on a football game or winning $500 at a poker table. Because we’re betting every day, all day on ourselves.” So it just kind of transformed over.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But I think that growing up in that atmosphere, too, did help me about not kind of being very risk averse and believing in myself. And I was drawn to poker mostly because that’s the only, I guess, game where the odds are really set with you more than anyone. Because if you’re playing black jack or craps or anything or betting on games, you’re going to pay the sugar money or the juice, as they call it. But you actually control your destiny, which is kind of the reason I think that I was drawing the poker, like I said. And that’s why I’m drawn to advertising, marketing, and branding. Because look, I’m making the calls. And look, if we lose a bunch of money, I don’t have to blame anybody but myself. Right?

Luke W Russell:

I understand you had an early interest in sports. Is that right?

Alexander Shunnarah:

When I wasn’t at the flea markets and I was hanging around all my cousins and we occupied two blocks, 10th Avenue and 10th Court Street right in the heart of University of Alabama Birmingham. So we played football, we played baseball, we played basketball. And then, when I got to high school, I was pretty good at baseball. And I wanted to be the second baseman for the New York Yankees. Right? And that was back in the day when the Yankees were good. They had Willie Randolph and Reggie Jackson. And the Yankees have an incredible history. I get through high school. And then my first year, I go to Samford and I want to try to play baseball and all that. So I still go out for the baseball team my first year and so forth. We’re moving along.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And so one day, you’ve got to know my dad. He’s still with me. He’s 85. His name is Fred Shunnarah or Freddy. He’s the one that taught me all my life lessons. He’s still my best friend. I’m his only son. He’s my flea market guy. We’ve always been business partners. If he was in the law business, I truly believe he would be one of the best lawyers in the world. Strong man, smart man for a guy who only finished the sixth grade. Taught himself how to read, went to the military at 18, came over when he was 12. Was an orphan. So he’s strong. He’s much stronger than I. And I always give him compliments cause I stand on his shoulders.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But so he’s funny, man. He calls me over one day, he has this little package store. And I’m in school and he is like, “Come see me, son.” They’re like, “Okay.” So I knew he was up to something. Cause when he calls me son, he is up to something. Right? And he says, “Hey, how’s that baseball thing going for you? And I was like, “Nah, it’s okay.” And he is like, “Well, let me ask you something, son. Can I ask you a question?” I said, “Sure, dad.” He’s like, “How many Palestinian Christians do you know that have played in the major leagues?” And so I’m being quiet. And I’m like, “None.” He said, “Okay, okay.” He said, “Well, let me ask something. How many … ” He’s like, “Bear with me. How many Palestinians Christians do you know that have ever played in the NFL?” I’m like, “None.” So now I knew where he was going. “Son, how many Palestinian Christians do you know that played in the NBA?” Like, “None.”

Alexander Shunnarah:

He said, “Son, you know where I’m from?” I was like, “Yeah, dad. You’re from Ramallah, which is seven miles north of Jerusalem.” He said, “Well, what’s the sport over there?” I said, “It’s soccer, dad. They call it football. Soccer.” He’s like, “That’s right.” He said, “Let me ask you something. How many Palestinian teams have ever gone to the World Cup?” He said, “Do you even know a Palestinian team that made it to the World Cup?”

Luke W Russell:

That’s funny.

Alexander Shunnarah:

“No.” Last thing he says, he says, “So let me ask you something you ever heard of the Olympics?” “Well, yeah, dad.” He’s like, “Well, it’s 2000 years old. Right?” I like, “Yeah, dad.” He’s like, “Have you ever seen one they’re lighting the torch that the Palestinians are walking with a flag into the stadium. Have you ever heard of Palestinian winning any kind of gold, silver, bronze, any medal?” Like, “No, dad.” And then he says, “Son, look at me.” And that’s why I look at him. He says, “Son, we’re merchants. We buy and we sell stuff. That’s what we do. That’s our gift. So what I want you to do is forget about this goofy baseball stuff. I want you to go back to school. I want you to make all A’s. I want you to get a law degree. And I want you to come out here and attack this business world.”

Alexander Shunnarah:

That was 30 years ago. And I can tell you, in 30 years, it’s still none, none, none, none, none, none. And I can honestly say with a straight face, it will be that way 30 years from now. It’s just the way God designed it.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. I love that. Now, I’d love to go back to when you were 10 or 12 years old in those markets. When you think back to then, what were you hearing, smelling, seeing? What were some of those early memories?

Alexander Shunnarah:

Man, it’s interesting. Like I said, my father, he would always challenge me. And that’s one thing about him. So I’d be 10 or 12 years old. We’d go have to set up on the weekends. I mean, look, I love him. I still have a tremendous affinity. So when I go anywhere, I think next week we’re going to be in New York. We got to go up to our Boston office. And then my team, Mitt and I, we need to fly to New York for a couple of days. We deal with this company called Lofty Law. And then we’re probably head to the city for a day or two. I’m going to find their markets because I like it. Down in New Orleans, where we have a New Orleans office. I always go to the flea markets.

Luke W Russell:

Yes.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Cause it makes me remember. And I have so much respect for those people because now where I’m sitting or where you’re sitting, it’s like, we know what we do for a living.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And it’s like, I’m so appreciative of the life that I have, but there are still people out there every day. The way they’re feeding their family and the way they’re feeding their kids or getting up in the morning, they have these goods, these garments. They got to set the table up. It’s the same thing. And then it’s up to them to try to sell you on a product. And I remember being young and my dad would challenge me. He would say, “Hey, I’m leaving today for about a few hours or something. When I get back, I want you to sell $20 worth or $40 worth.” And I didn’t want to disappoint him. So I overcame that fear pretty quickly. And I’m joking. Look, we sold everything back then, but it was still the same stuff you see today. Two sunglasses for $15. Fake watches. I call them fake, but replica watches. Replica jewelry. T-shirts blankets, pillows, dry goods. Whatever my dad can get that he would purchase from New York or whatever. And you just go to these hometowns and you just try to sell something.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I mean, it’s the whole principle of, buy it for a dollar and just sell it for $2. And try to make a profit. And obviously, you probably have to pay, I don’t remember what my dad had to pay for the booth back then. Maybe $20 for the day.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

You’re just in the middle of the field. It’s hot. Mosquitoes are biting you.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

You’re just trying to sell something. But all the success I’ve had, it’s all relative anyway. Because I just think success is relative. I don’t think Elon Musk thinks I’m successful. Or Warren buffet or Jeffrey Bezos. But in terms of just knowing that no one is better than anyone. And I think that really helped me. And I try to educate my lawyers because some of my lawyers, and I’m being very respectful. If you want me to be authentic and true, I think they’re a little condescending and they’re a little arrogant. And we just got a 25 million verdict last week, last Friday, which is one of the state’s highest verdicts in Alabama. And it was in a rural county that, I think the largest verdict ever there was $2 million. I mean, and we’re really good at the traumatic brain injury case. And they are incredible trial attorneys and are so good at their craft. But I’m not impressed by, I don’t give a damn about the country club they belong to.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

You know what I’m saying?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Or the vintage watches that they wear. I don’t care. I care that they’re great trial lawyers.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But that stuff, I was never in a fraternity in college I’m just Alexander Shunnarah. Like me, love me, hate me, don’t like me. I don’t really give a damn. Okay? And that’s just something I never cared about. I’m just very comfortable in my skin. I know who I am. I know what principles I believe in. And I consider myself a leader now. And I don’t think if I didn’t think that way I would’ve ever become a leader. Because you can’t lead people if you’re a part of a group or a click. And I’m not a part of a group. I tell all the people, now, we deal with all these vendors across. And we’re in the mass torch space, too. And you get all these lawyers and we have a lot of respect for all of them. They’re all good friends of ours and colleagues of ours. But what we’ve noticed is, a lot of them say, “Well, we want you to send all our cases to us.” Just this one firm. And we’re like, “Look, I’m a free agent.”

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

“I’m not committed to anyone. Not because I don’t like you and not because I don’t want to do business with you. Not that I won’t send you business. I just don’t want to be in a situation where I feel like I can’t work with who I want when I want. That’s all.”

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. What was the home dynamic like? Cause you were one of four kiddos in the house. You had three sisters. What was the birth order there?

Alexander Shunnarah:

Well, so that was great, too. I think it made me responsible. So I was the first born. And then I had three younger sisters. And once again, dad was a hard working man. Right? He was a man who was in the flea markets. And so don’t remember, my flea market trips are on the weekend. But what my dad would do sometimes, too, the flea markets are only on a Saturday, right?

Luke W Russell:

Right.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Or on a Sunday. He was a dry good salesman. So he’d have a big old car. I remember some of the cars we had. When I was seven, he had a 1973 Chrysler Bram, right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Big old car. Right? And then he had a blue one and then an ugly brown one. But I mean, the trunk space on there, I swear to you, you could put a cow in that trunk. That’s how big it was. Right? And he would just go and even back then, I remember, the polo shirts.

Luke W Russell:

Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Who knew what type of shirts they were or what the brand was. But he’d have maybe a thousand of the polo shirts with the three buttons. And he’d load it up with all his dry goods, is what I call it. And he would just go out of town because the way him and all my uncles, this whole group of men, is about a hundred of them trying to feed their families. They just hit the roads, man. And they would just hit the highways of Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia. And they obviously knew when the poor people, I guess, or the rural people had money. Because they get their checks on the first and the 15th. Right? You just go into this neighborhood and just honk a horn. They’re like, “Oh, there’s the dry good salesman.” And you just pop open your truck and then they just sit there. They’re peddlers is what they called them.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And they would hustle and sometimes he’d be gone 10, 12 days. And I remember he’d come home. And we’re like, “Daddy’s coming home.” There’s no cell phones. And you’d just see him pull up. And we’d all just run out of the house and hug him. But at a small age, I was like, “Dad, how’d you do? How’d you do?” He was like, “Yeah, it was good.” Or, “It was dry.” Or, “I did okay.” And they sleep in these motels every night on the road. $10. It’d be usually a couple of guys would go their different directions, but they’d share a room, right? $30 room. $10 or $15 a piece. And it’s really impressive. And I’m really proud of our heritage and our people.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Because I would just tell you, of all the Shunnarah families and of this Palestinian community from Ramallah, which is seven miles north of Jerusalem. And I’m being very respectful. I don’t know any one of them who has not done well. I think that speaks highly about their work ethic and their kind of their mentality. The Palestinian Christians didn’t come over until Palestine became Israel.

Luke W Russell:

Right.

Alexander Shunnarah:

In the 1948, 1949 War. Right? Just overnight. It went from Palestine to Israel.

Luke W Russell:

Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And back then there wasn’t even immigration. So everybody just got on a boat and just came over.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Two years ago, I went to Ellis Island and I actually saw where my dad signed in.

Luke W Russell:

Oh.

Alexander Shunnarah:

It’s so neat.

Luke W Russell:

Wow.

Alexander Shunnarah:

You could go there and see every signature. I’m very appreciative that we live in America.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I love capitalism. I understand capitalism. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the United States of America. I still think it’s the greatest country in the world. I know that that could be debated. To me, I was a political science major. It’s hard to govern 330 million people. Okay?

Luke W Russell:

Yep. Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

People always are mad at the Democrats or the Republicans. But all you got to do is turn on Fox for 10 minutes and then turn on CNN for 10 minutes or watch … I mean, it’s the same story, but it’s just told two different ways.

Luke W Russell:

Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I was watching one, I don’t know, maybe a year ago when all the immigrants were coming in. Right? And everybody’s very upset with Biden and it’s kind of funny. And so I’m watching Fox. And Fox is like, “There’s hundreds and hundreds of confirmed MS 13 gang members in this group coming through.” Right? And then of course, turn on CNN and everybody’s a priest or a saint or some type of noble person. And it’s like, “All right, this is the same picture of the same set of 10 people walking. All right? So are they gang members or are they …” But that’s how it is across the board right. In America. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yep. Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But I thank God that I have clear enough vision that I am one of the few, and I’m sure you are, that I’m not influenced by the media. Right? Because you control people by the media. Hence, that’s why China has all the censorship and all these other countries, Korea and all these. Because if you control the media, you control the people.

Luke W Russell:

Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Hence, you have a lot of friends that you interview. Hence, and is kind of being funny. Isn’t it ironic that television is what made me popular in Alabama?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Cause if you tell somebody long enough, “Call me, Alabama.” Hell, they’ll call you. And it’s really funny, but it’s just the power of voice and hearing things over and over and over.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah. I’d like to take a quick journey down through C stores. Do you remember the conversation when your dad came home and was like, “Hey, I bought my first convenience store.”

Alexander Shunnarah:

Yeah. I was really, really excited, man. Because my dad was on the road once again, so you’re talking about a guy who, my father was in the military. I didn’t tell you that. So at 18, he didn’t have anything. He barely spoke the language. He got here at 12. So he joined the United States Navy and got out of 26. And then he went home at 27. When I say home, back to the motherland, which is Israel, Ramallah. Palestine. And married my mother. And then they came back and a year later, I was born. But so my dad was about 42 years old, I guess, when he had saved up enough money to buy that C store. And I’ll tell you, up until then, I didn’t know that we didn’t really have money. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Or I never felt like I was missing out on anything. Let me tell you when I learned I didn’t have any money.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Tell me.

Alexander Shunnarah:

When I went to high school, I said, “Man, there’s some really nice cars here, we don’t have any of these type of cars.” It really started to sink in about the ninth grade. Right? And then I turned where I could get a car. Right? And we couldn’t afford to get a car. So one summer, I worked all summer long. I told my dad I couldn’t help him. Right? So I had to get me a car. And I cut grass all summer. So I was the grass cutting guy for all the cousins. Right? And the one thing I’ve learned about my cousins is that I was going to try to get a deal. Right? And so I had to learn how to deal with my own kind, which was like, “Hey.” So I was negotiating back then like I do in my mediations now, which is funny. “Let’s be fair and reasonable here.” Right? A good day’s work for a good days pay.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But I’m proud. I saved $2,500. I bought me a 1979, which, you gonna laugh. A 1979 Chevy Impala. It was a Snoop Dog Impala. It was black. It had rims. It had the cotton seats in it.

Luke W Russell:

Yes.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And when I drove it to high school and I was looking at all these brand new Maximas and all these nice cars. And their parents were all living in the country clubs and so forth and so on.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I was like, “Yeah, I’m still poor.” I’m really, really poor. I didn’t know how creative you could be when you had to wear a white shirt and blue pants. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But the guys could actually wear the white shirt. Right? That had the polo on it.

Luke W Russell:

Uh-huh (affirmative). Yep. Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

He was the cool looking guy, right? When I’ve got the little Kmart white shirt, right? With the roughed up collars. But we’re very happy for my dad. And immediately, that’s another thing. I jumped in. I would get out of school every day when there wasn’t baseball practice in high school. And I would always help my dad in the C stores. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And so we, that C store was actually a blessing to our family and it actually is what ended up making my dad where he finally started making some money. And so back in, say, the Reaganomics in 1980, started making $100,000 a year.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And that was $8,000 a month. Now, the hours are, my famous saying eyes open and eyes closed.

Luke W Russell:

Right.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But it was a blessing because it allowed me and my three sisters to all go to college, all get degrees. My parents were finally able to build a house. Back then, a mansion. It was a $380,000 house, which was a mansion back then. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And then things started to change a little bit better. I didn’t have to drive the Snoop Dog. Right? When I went to college, my dad was kind and I remember he bought me a $10,000 car. I was like, “Oh my God.” It was brand new. It was this candy apple red Camaro Z 28.

Luke W Russell:

Yes. Yes.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I was the cool boy canvas with my little $10,000 car. But I would say that store was very instrumental in our life for a long time. And then about, I stayed with him. In 92, my dad said, “I’m going to sell you the store.” Right?

Luke W Russell:

Okay.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But I’m still 50% your partner, that’s the way things happen. Right? But legally, he transferred it over to me and basically said, “You’re going to take care of it.” So it shows you how much trust he had of me when I’m only, let’s see. 92. So was only, what, 26 at the time, or 25. And he just basically turned it over to me. And I was able to kind of double the business. I kept it till 2007.

Luke W Russell:

Wow.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And I actually kept it for 10 years after I became a lawyer. And I actually went to night law school during the time I had the C store. But then when I finally opened my own practice, I worked for a law firm for five years. And then I had the store for five years. And then finally, I felt that I was making enough money where I knew I needed to focus 100% on my little law practice. The firm now is 20 years old, the Alexander Shunnarah firm. But I tell you, it was a struggle then, too, Luke. I mean, people don’t really realize it. Between 2001 and 2010, I don’t know if it’s a good analogy, but I was just always, I called it like chipping the dam. I’m pretty transparent. I mean, the first nine years of my practice, we did about $3 million in revenue, gross revenue, not net, in 2010. But then I was able to grow it from 2010 to 2019, from $3 million to $52 million in gross. I will tell you that this year, just in the personal injury space, we’re on track for $80 million.

Luke W Russell:

Wow. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So I’ve learned that, once you break through, it’s kind of like chipping the dam. Because once that dam breaks, all that water’s coming. It’s been a blessing. And I, once again, thanked my father. Because I told him I didn’t want to go to law school.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Back then, people wanted to go to law school and law schools were more prestigious back then. And I’m being funded by law schools. Now they’ll take anybody who’s willing to pay, right? Across America. So I don’t know if the law schools want to admit that, but anybody on this podcast wants to send their kids to law school, they’ll take you. Just pay the money. Okay? But they came to my dad and I and they’re like, “We only take 200 people.” Because you couldn’t work, right? And I had the C store, right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And they were like, “You need to pay three years full tuition.” I was like, “Hell no, I can’t pay three years full tuition.” I mean, because I started thinking about my dad and myself. I was like, “No, that’s a bad deal. I might fail.”

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I don’t know. But so I decided not to. And then I was like, “Dad, I’m making a hundred grand a year.” Cause remember I doubled it. And he was making a hundred and I was rolling then, boy.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I’m going to tell you, I had a car, no responsibilities. That’s when he sat me down again. And he is like, one of those son talks. He’s like, “No, you’re better than this. You don’t want to be known as the C store man. You don’t want to be in these long hours.” Even though the law is just as long. But in the end, because my goal back then was like, “Well, why we buy another C store and another C store?”

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And we could end up having 10 C stores and …

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

He was like, “No.” And I didn’t say this. I was robbed twice.

Luke W Russell:

Okay.

Alexander Shunnarah:

That’s not a great feeling either. Guy walks in and I’ll never forget. He asked for a pack of Newports. Right? And I mean, I hadn’t had any cognitive therapy over it because I’m pretty mentally strong. But I remember reaching for the pack of Newports. The next thing I know, there’s a gun pointed at me. You could see it out of your peripheral vision. See, that’s why I was good in baseball. I had a little peripheral vision to do the double play. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But I was like, “Okay.” And then it was scary because then I remember he made me walk to the back of the store and he made me lay down in the beer cooler. And I was like, “Okay, he’s about to put a bullet in my head.” But, by the grace of God, he just decided not to shoot me. And he just ran out of the store. Of course, my dad reminded me, “Why do you want to be in a place?” The whole thing. It’s less likely you get held up at a law firm that you are than a liquor store. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And he gave me that old, one for the Gipper type speech. “You’re as good as anybody. You’re as smart as anybody. Nobody’s better than anybody. Everybody gets up, puts on their pants one leg at a time. You’re competitive. Go to school. Make us proud. Get a law degree. Hang your shingle. Figure it out.” And now that I’ll reflect back, that’s why I’ve always given … If it wasn’t for him. I think the lesson to be learned for me or for anyone that’s listening to this podcast is, I am living proof how important it is for parents to be instrumental in their children’s lives. And they don’t like you. My dad’s my best friend now, but there was just so many times I fought with him all day every day. It’s like, “You don’t know what you’re talking about, old man.” And we used to fight. And I regret cause you go through that when you get that testosterone.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

You’re 20 years old and like, “You’re not going to tell me shit.” Right? “I’m 20 years old.” Or once I said, “I’m making a hundred grand a year. I don’t need your ass.” So. But my point is, he’s always been right.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

He has always been right. And even this past Sunday, we were there with was my sister’s son. He sat me down and he’s 85. And he looks at me. Like I said, I’m 55.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And he is like, “Son, here’s what you need to do now. You need to live life. You need to live life. Nobody gives a damn, okay? Live your life. Don’t let anything bother you. Don’t stress yourself out. You come full circle. You see these little three girls you have that are 16 and 14 and 13? They’re going to grow up just like you grow up. And they’re going to get have families. And you know what they’re going to say about you? Well, my dad was a good man.” He’s like, “I know they’re your responsibility. And of course, and you’re going to take care of him the way I took care of them.” But what he was trying to tell me is, don’t forget about yourself and your happiness and what’s important to you as you enter this maybe last season of your life. Not the last season, but the 55 to 75, 85. And then he reminded me, which we all know how time flies. And he says it’s just like a blink of an eye to him. And he’s 85. And he said he remembers being in the Navy like it was yesterday.

Luke W Russell:

Wow.

Alexander Shunnarah:

When he was 18.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And nobody else tells you that but a dad.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. So I’d love to go back, you mentioned those first nine years of your practice were hard. Were you struggling under the weight of imposter syndrome? Maybe fearing that one day you’d wake up and everything you’d work so hard would fall apart?

Alexander Shunnarah:

It’s not that I ever worried about losing everything I’d worked for, but I was aware enough to know that I was an imposter, if you want to call that. Or I was aware enough of the fact that I knew who we were as a law firm and what we were capable of doing. And I owned it. And I was able to understand that if we were ever going to get the $25 million verdict that we got last week, let’s say, or all the success we’ve had, that these are the parts that I needed. These are the things that we’re missing. The problem is, and I think most firms need to hear this. You only can do it one step at a time. Right? So what’s the use of going and hiring a great trial lawyer who wants, by the way, a million dollars a year, if you don’t have the million dollar cases? Okay?

Alexander Shunnarah:

So you got to go get the million dollar cases to be able to go get the lawyers who are interested to come work for you. Because if you want that type of talent, they’re not interested in working a $25,000 car wreck claim. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And then if you want the million dollar case, you have to be able to finance the million dollar case. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

We have a case right now that we think is a $25 million case. Actually, couple of them. Well, I can tell you that we have about $400,000 tied up in just two cases.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I mean, I have 40,000 cases. That’s two cases that have $800,000 tied up into them. So I will share any secret. There is no secrets in this business. And I joke around at some of these conferences. I was like, “I’ll tell you every damn thing I know, because I know 99.9% of you ain’t going to do it anyway.” So I mean, there ain’t no secrets.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Because it’s a lot more than just the secret. There is no secrets. It’s about the decision on how you want to do things and what you’re willing to do. And so people will come up to me sometimes, Luke, and they’re like, “I want to firm just like yours.” I was like, “Oh, you do?” And they’re like, “Yeah.” They’re like, “Well, could you please sit down with me, talk to me how I can get there?” What I really want to say is, “Well, first of all, you’re going to need about $80 million tied up in your cases, in case acquisition, case expense buildings, lawyers.”

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And then on top of that, you’re spending a couple of million dollars a month in overhead on marketing. And so if I handed you $80 million blueprint, anybody, I don’t think one person would say, “You know what? Okay, now I want the firm just like you had.” When you could just take the 80 million and ride off in the sunset, right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So I don’t think and I don’t worry about too many firms growing up like we have. Because most people don’t want to do, say, what a Morgan and Morgan did or what I’ve done. Because it’s really, too much money is tied up into it.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And they’re really, honestly, some nights, and I’m being honest. We’re friends.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And I can’t wait to see you at the next thing. Let’s have an old fashioned or something. It’s like, I’m probably going to ask you, “Luke, how in the hell am I going to get my $80 million out of the black hole?” Because the problem is, the more growth you have-

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

The bigger that black hole gets.

Luke W Russell:

Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Then you need more lawyers. Then you need more buildings. And so I don’t know. I haven’t thought about it because we’re in growth mode, but I have absolutely zero idea of an exit plan at this moment, sir. And sometimes I just joke around and people will ask me. I was like, “I don’t know. I hope my daughters become lawyers. I own a hundred percent of the company. I’d like to give them my shares. They can figure it out. They’re the TikTok generation. They’re supposed to be the smart people. They’re the ones that I never see study and make straight As, so let their ass figure it out.” I don’t know. I don’t really care cause I won’t be here.

Luke W Russell:

Right. Oh my gosh. I love it, Alex. When we come back, Alex will explain how understanding individual roles within an organization can help keep our egos in check. Stay with us. I’m Luke W. Russell and you are listening to Lawful Good.

Speaker 3:

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Speaker 3:

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Speaker 3:

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Speaker 3:

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Luke W Russell:

When we left off, Alex had taken us from his early childhood to convenience store owner to running his own law firm. As we pick up the conversation, we discuss the importance of failure, keeping ego in check, and why parenting is so much harder than running his firm. Talking about this firm that you’ve got that’s just in growth mode, when you look back over the last 21 years, do you have a favorite failure?

Alexander Shunnarah:

I’ll tell you this, Luke. So I don’t know if I have a favorite failure. And I want to answer it, but I do truly believe this. And people, I don’t think, honestly, get this. There’s a thin line between love and hate and there’s even a thinner line between success and failure. And I truly believe this. Respectfully, when you say failures is, the best way for me to explain it is, and I know people are looking for the aha moments, which I can give you two or three that kind of worked in our favor. But I think the score is, when you’re making decisions every day for 20 years. Right? And think about the number of decisions you made from the lawyers you’re hired to the marketing campaign to the cases, to whatever. I mean, the score right now is, let’s say it’s 99,000 successful things and 98,000 failures.

Alexander Shunnarah:

That’s how many failures you have on a daily basis. I mean, over a decade of time. I mean, you are failing all the time in business, right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I mean, just picking the wrong damn phone service company is a failure, right? I mean, I always joke about the lawyers. I’ve probably hired over 300 lawyers. And supposedly, I do think that one of my gifts that we were talking about earlier that God genetics, I think I have one called discernment. And I can just tell you, I’m only bating 50%. And so no matter what the resume says, don’t matter what anything says, I mean, I’ve only been right on about half the lawyers that I’ve ever gotten.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But I’m resilient to it. Right? And it doesn’t bother me because I kind of understand, I take things at a deeper level that failure is just a part of success. And people say that, but if you really think about it, we fail every day, all day. But as long as you make more good decisions than bad decisions, you should come out ahead. And obviously, we have made more good decisions. And if you learn from your mistakes, which we have learned from our mistakes, and don’t repeat the same mistakes, that will also make you better and strengthen you. And then it’s also just about having the understanding of the space you’re into. What’s really important and what’s not as important. And …

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I think a lot of people get confused, to into the weeds, about things that they put so much time and effort in that are not as important. Of course, I’m double speaking. They are important, but they’re only important if the first part works. And I always use as example, if you and I, Luke, went to Vegas, which we know, have great restaurants. And we went to the Wynn. And you and I went partners and we hired the greatest chefs in the world at the nicest restaurant at the Wynn. I let you decor the whole thing, set the theme up for us. It’s great. But if nobody comes in the door, it doesn’t matter. We’re going out of business.

Luke W Russell:

Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So I quickly figured out in my business, even though there’s a thousand things to it, that you have to have the cases. Right? And I always say, cases are king. And there’s some firms that have great lawyers, but a terrible intake center.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So all the pieces need to work, but just remember how to prioritize the pieces, I guess.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And if you don’t know, ask somebody what’s important, right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah. Alex, one of the things I really liked about you before ever having met you was, we had Sarah Williams on our season one. And Sarah has a really big personality. She’s a powerhouse attorney. She owns her domain. And a lot of times, lawyers in your situation don’t seem to be excited to shine the spotlight and share the spotlight with one of their team members. And I find it really interesting when I hear Sarah talk about the kind of dynamics that, you don’t strike me as someone who seems to be consumed with the spotlight and your own ego.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I’m not. And I appreciate you saying that. And listen, I know Sarah’s been kind. It’s always been on solicited, but obviously that’s something that she recognized a long time ago. And that’s the one thing I just never understood, Luke. Is, I would hope it would be considered forward thinking on my part. But I don’t have an ego. I’m not a guy who am, what you call, a boss. I’m a leader.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And I’m a visionary. And no one is better than anyone. And anyone who tries to stifle anyone’s gifts is crazy. And so I don’t need, and I’ve been around a lot of firms which holds them back because of what you’re talking about. Because their ego is too big and they want to be the king of their little pond or whatever pond they think it is. Or whatever law firm. One of a billion law firms in America. Right? That they feel like they have to be the alpha male there. And what they don’t recognize is, you’re not the only alpha person in the world. Right? And there’s a lot of people that are just as good as you, if not better. And I just recognize, so I’m not intimidated, respectfully, by anyone. I mean, we named some great lawyers. And I wouldn’t trade who I am for any lawyer in America.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I don’t want to be Mark Lanier.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

He’s one of the greatest trial lawyers in the world. I don’t want to be Mark Lanier.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I’m very comfortable in who I am and that’s one thing. I’m not jealous of anyone either. Jealous is a bad thing and envy is a bad thing. All you can do is just be who you are. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So in 2015, I don’t mind sharing this with you. Traditional media was very successful for us for maybe from, even though it was rough from one to 10, which goes to my ability to do adapt. And we had a nice run from 2010 to 2015 with traditional media. The billboards. And that’s a very short time. It’s TV, radio, billboards, three platforms, Alabama. And we got a lot of cases. And kind usurped to being the most recognized firm in Alabama. But I saw the ship coming. And where we are in 2022 kind of goes hand in hand. And so what I’ve encouraged all 125 of my lawyers is to build your own brand within the brand. Because I need your help. I can’t feed all of you guys. I can’t feed you. And I’m really not too concerned because you get these people that just don’t understand. And I mean that respectfully, even though they’re lawyers and they should be smart. Like, “Well Alex, aren’t you worried about Sarah Williams leaving you?” No. I hope Sarah does blow up.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I mean she’s still my best friend.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I can still work on any case project I want with her. She really doesn’t have to be in my building and under the shield. She doesn’t listen to me anyway and she does `what she wants anyway.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So if she wanted to move next door right here to my headquarters, there’s a very beautiful building out right behind me. I joke with her all the time. I say, “Well, go next door, buy the building, call it to Sarah Williams Law Firm, decorated pink. And nothing really changes because if I get a case and I need your legal prowess, I’m just going to walk next door and you and I are going to work it together.” I mean, there’s no difference. I mean, it’s just no difference.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Because there are no more borders and what’s the difference. And if it makes you feel better to just have your name on a building, I don’t have a problem with that. And the same thing about the two guys today who got that $25 million verdict. They’re both very financially, they’ve got a ton of money now. I mean they have enough money to open their own law firm.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But I would be more worried about those guys just making money and just retiring then opening up another law firm. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

You just say, “I don’t want to do this anymore. I just want to go fishing every day.” Or something like that. That’s the kind of stuff I worry about. So I’m more motivating them about, “Just stay in the business. If it’s with me or if it’s by yourself or if you join,” I’m being funny, “Morgan and Morgan. I don’t care because I know what type of lawyer you are and we’re going to work on some projects together.” Right?

Luke W Russell:

I love that. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So, and look, I’ve got a lot of lawyers that are better lawyers than me from a legal perspective.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But as a totality, I’m the best. Because-

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I mean, there’s about a hundred parts that make you very successful in this space. Right? And so some of these great trial lawyers couldn’t find a case if it walked in their door.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Or couldn’t run a business if it walked in their door.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I mean, it’s not one thing. It’s like a football team, right? Or a baseball team. I mean, you need all 52 players in the football team doing their job in that game to actually win. I always think about the people who climb Mount Everest. And then you always see them taking a picture like they’re standing up there by themselves. And I’m always thinking, “Yeah, but you didn’t see the three sherpas that fell to their death getting you up there. Right?”

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And nobody will ascend in any business unless you take people with you.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. So I guess you’re probably not a huge fan of the phrase or term self made?

Alexander Shunnarah:

If you took it literally for what it meant.

Luke W Russell:

Right.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Right. I totally disagree. No one is self made. But in terms of, I know the role, I know what I have to do on an everyday basis to be where we have gotten. And in that context, I am self.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Say, creating this litigation team in 2012, starting with Brandon, who was one of the lawyers who got that verdict who’s now 42 and recognizing him as a young, talented lawyer at 32 on the defense side. And going to him and being able to sell him on the fact that I wanted to start this litigation team, which then, he’s the one that brought Sarah.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Cause she worked underneath him. And then it was just a snowball effect. So, but if I don’t start that trying to get Brandon, then I never get Sarah. If I wasn’t joined Chris, I would’ve never met you. And if I didn’t meet you, I wouldn’t be on this podcast today. So it’s like, I do believe you always have to … And I’m like, “Why are you going here? Or why are you doing this?” You do have to put yourself out there. Nothing comes to you. You go out. And another thing that amazes me that makes me upset, people will go to these conferences or they go here or crisp or wherever they are. Right? The summits. And they’re like, “Oh.” National trials. And we see each other and they’re like, “Well, I mean, this conference is not very good and I didn’t get anything out of it.” And I’m like, “You’re missing the picture.” It’s not them telling me about Zantac.

Luke W Russell:

Right.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I don’t care about Zantac. I have a lot of Zantac cases. And we have the right lawyers working on them and working on the science of them. That’s not the point. The point is, by being in the arena, one of my favorite sayings, the Franklin D. Roosevelt, the man in the arena speech. Which basically says it. You got to be in the arena, in the space, to give yourself a chance. But I just think sometimes people don’t have the courage to go up to people and talk to them. Or you see them, they’ll come with two or three people that they see every day at work. And that’s all the people they hang out with and talk to. Hell with them. I see them every day. They’re not going to tell me anything. I don’t know.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So talk to someone that you don’t know and develop a relationship with them. And I promise you, there’s something that he does or that he knows that you don’t know. People say, “Alex, you’re in an expert in the space.” Or, “Alex.” I’ve heard this a lot of times. “Alex, no one in this space understands personal injury as well as you do. You know.” And I’m like, “Well, I mean, I appreciate the compliment, but not really. I mean, because I’m learning something every day. And I can just tell you, if I would’ve continued to do what I did in 2015, we’d be out of business. Because things are changing every day.” It used to be that they didn’t change. But I mean, it’s not a cliche. The digital world has turned the law business upside down. And it’s just faster and faster. I mean, how long has podcast been around? How long has it been hot in the law space? What’s the oldest great law podcast? I don’t even know.

Luke W Russell:

Couple years maybe.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Obviously, yours is. Yours is. But how old is your podcast?

Luke W Russell:

June 8th will be our one year anniversary.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Yeah. So, I mean, I’m just saying, I don’t even know if I’ve ever listened to a podcast five years ago.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And now, it’s just something you listen to all the time. So things are just changing. And you’ve got to be able to adapt.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. I’d love to talk a little about your relationship with your dad over the years as you were building the firm. And I’m curious, how did that relationship shift and would you say that he played the role of mentor beyond the C store phase?

Alexander Shunnarah:

No, just be honest. I will say that, once I opened up my law firm, he never interfered in my law firm. He would come by, he’ll come by headquarters right now. And I think our power bill’s $10,000. Right? And he still thinks we live on that little $10,000 home. We grew up on south side. And he’s like, “Why are all the lights on?” We’re like, “Dad.”

Luke W Russell:

Love it.

Alexander Shunnarah:

“I mean, this is a 30,000 square foot building, dad. If you want to go turn all the damn lights off, go turn the lights off.” So the bill’s going to $9,998 this month. So I think he just came to the conclusion on his own at some point that, other than being my biggest ally and cheerleader and a man of praise and I’m proud of you and words of affirmation and so forth and so on, that he really could not help me in the law space. Or the level of business that I have taken it to, versus … There’s a big difference between a law firm of this size and a C store. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

But the basic principles of work ethic haven’t changed that he taught me. People skills. That hasn’t changed. The old Reagan, what’s the old Ronald Reagan statement? Trust everybody, but verify everything.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

That hasn’t changed.

Luke W Russell:

Yep. Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And so being risk averse. Not risk averse, but risk tolerant. So the core principles, blocking and tackling, will transform to all platforms. But the skillset that he learned at that time does not translate to where we are today. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Right. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

2015, all I knew was SEO was for search engine optimization. Now I own, I don’t think you know this, but I mean, I am a 7% owner of a technology company. Isn’t that something?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So, I mean, I went from a guy who never spent a dollar on the internet to owning a technology company. So.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Things, they changed drastically.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. You mentioned your daughters. By the way, which, three teenagers, how would you rate yourself on parenting versus running a law firm?

Alexander Shunnarah:

I would say honestly, it’s much more difficult and challenging dealing with those three daughters. It’s easier to deal with some of the hardest, most educated, most intelligent defense lawyers in America than dealing with my 16, 15, and 13. It’s amazing how difficult rearing teenage daughters are. You hear about it, but I mean, I want to confess. My feelings are hurt. They don’t talk to me. I mean, they are just … You always hear they come back to you, but that precious little girl that you are her best friend, it’s kind of like, they take this 10 year break and they just disowned you, man.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And until, if you do the studying of, I’ve went and did the science on it. Supposedly their front cerebral cortex doesn’t fully develop emotionally until they hit about 23, right? Or 24. And I’ve had a few guys that have a little older children than me that says, by the time their daughters graduated high school, I mean, college, they wake up one morning about 23. And it’s like, now a light turns on or their brain just switched to a different platform. And now, their daddy, they love them again. But I mean. When you’ve worked your whole life and I mean, it is so bad. I mean, for me. I mean, you work your whole life, you have this house. They think they own it. Right? You work their whole life for generations. And I can’t even, if they have friends over, I’m not allowed in the backyard. You can’t go to the backyard.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Cause you’re not cool to them. They don’t give a damn if you’re own every billboard in Alabama. “You’re not cool. You’re not smart. I don’t like the way you’re dressed. You might say something to embarrass me.” It is crazy. Right? And so, oh. Let me tell you about this new term, since we’re having fun.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I didn’t even know what this term was until about a month ago. So now, you know what they’re calling me. I was like, “Hey, Alexandra. You haven’t talked to me today. You never talked to me or you never call me or not checking on your dad. Or Natalia.” So I’m now, they call me the pick me dad. Pick me. The pick me dad. I guess. “Dad, you’re such a pick me. You’re such a pick me.” I said, “Look, I’m smart enough to realize.” I said, “Are you trying to say like the guy, when we were playing ball when we were 12 or 13 and you’re picking players and you’re the one that’s waving saying, ‘Pick me, I want to play on your team. Pick me, pick me.'” But I am officially the last two months now, the pick me dad. I mean, they spare no feelings, man. It is crazy. I’m the pick me dad. I love that one. That’s the new one.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I try not to personalize any of it. And I understand their emotions and they’re being impulsive. And all those things. But I think you have to be a very patient person with them. And you have to be very delicate. And be their number one fan. And I truly, truly believe 1000% that once they kind of grow up and get out of … It’s probably another 10 years of hell for me. But I think if the good Lord blesses me, that I will have a very solid, real dad foundation. Because I had it until they all hit 13. Now once 16, 15 and 13. So the 16 year old has had nothing to do with me for three years. The 15 year old has had nothing to do with me for two years.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And I’ll tell you, the youngest, who was always, I said was the sweetest. I mean talking about the love of my life and the youngest daughter, she has done a 180 on me this last year. It is like, she’s a totally different. So it is a true thing that happens. She used to call six times a day. She don’t call me anymore. She doesn’t care. I mean. But I think it’s just life.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And just, it’ll be full circle.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Thinking of the women in your life, did your mom pass in recent years?

Alexander Shunnarah:

No, my mother’s still with me.

Luke W Russell:

What’s your relationship like her been like as you’ve gotten older and you think back to all the influence she played in your life throughout your childhood? What’s that dynamic like today?

Alexander Shunnarah:

So my mother and father are different people. Right? You have to remember, my father are obviously, man and woman. But my father grew up. And he was orphaned and then he went to the military. And so even though I’ve said a lot of the positive things about my dad and cause I love him unconditionally and he’s just a tough man. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

He’s just tough. He’s a matter of fact. He is straightforward. He’s going to say what he is on his mind. He’s strong minded. He’s strong willed. My mother, on the other side, was the opposite, which is she took on all the feministic characteristics. I mean, she is the most loving, kind, patient, respectful, God-fearing type woman you’ll ever meet. And just, once I became a man, she recognized even at 20, the roles had kind of changed. I mean, obviously where we are now is, I’m their caregiver really. I mean, they’re healthy and they’re self-sufficient. But anything they want or need, they know their son is going to take care of it for them. Right? Anything. And I don’t mind, in our culture and family, I mean, I send them money every month. I’ve been sending them money for 10 years. And so my dad jokes that I’m his social security retirement, because social security doesn’t send enough money. But that is just my way of paying gratitude to him and my mother.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So they can buy what they want or do what they want whenever they want.

Luke W Russell:

It’s interesting to think about, you were born in Birmingham. Your parents immigrated over and you were going to flea markets. And you were raised in a bit of a hustle environment to get by. When you think about your daughters, they’re not having that same kind of upbringing experience. What kind of lessons do you hope that how you’ve shown up as a dad will impart with them, even though they don’t have that same kind of childhood that you did?

Alexander Shunnarah:

Listen, man, I really worry about it. Just this is all about what we talked about earlier, being truthful and being transparent. And it has been very difficult for me to try to find a dynamic between not wanting to spoil them, but at the same time, it’s just very hard to say no to your little girls when they look in your eyes.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Because I mean, I will say this, they’re the only three people that own me. Who have ever owned me. They’re the only people that, and I don’t think you understand. I mean, I’m only speaking for myself, but those girls own me. They just do. I can see no wrong in them. My heart is pure towards them 1000% regardless of who they are or what they do. I don’t see anything that would ever not make me love them unconditionally. And it’s just a difficult, it’s a difficult balance. I do worry, though. Because I guess I read too much, I’m a voracious reader, of how that can backfire. And I try to, obviously, instill the principles as much as we can.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So in Atlanta last Thanksgiving, we became the major sponsor to feed all the homeless down at the Georgia dome. And I made them spend the day with me on Thanksgiving. And really, I’ll be honest with you, as much as I love to give back, I wanted them to see it. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Because I could have just paid for everything, it didn’t have to go do it myself. Right? But I went and we spent Thanksgiving in Atlanta. And I made them work all day where we had to pack all the things for the homeless. Because other than feeding them, we gave them a pack of things and then I got to speak. And obviously, it was just giving back. But I wanted them to see how there are people in the world that are so much less fortunate than you. And we need to be appreciative. I’m always preaching gratitude and gratitude and blessings. And I’m always preaching to them about, “You have to work hard if you want ever achieve anything.” And yeah, I have to bribe them to read books sometimes. Like, “If you read this book, I’ll give you a couple of hundred dollars.” Or, “I’ll buy you these.”

Alexander Shunnarah:

But the problem is that all their friends, they’re all alike. Everybody’s alike. They all wear the same type of shoe. They all want the same type of little purse. They all want the same type of … And I’m not saying they’re keeping up with the Joneses, but you really, if you don’t kind of, in some weird way or fashion, if they don’t have the same shoe that the other girls have or the same laptop or the, it’s almost like it’s an iPhone convention when the new iPhone comes out. Cause if you don’t have the new iPhone, you’re not in the cool club or something.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And it’s like, there’s nothing wrong with your damn iPhone. But when you are trying to like, I’m being funny, settle a $20 million case or something, or a $5 million case and your daughter’s calling you 17 times in a day wanting to know if you’ll take her by the Verizon store and telling you that it’s time to upgrade. You finally like, “Okay, just leave me alone. I’ll come by afterwards, take you to upgrade your damn phone.” But I can’t relate. I can’t remember those times back then anyway.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And you remember I told you earlier in the podcast, I never felt that I was denied anything either. But I do want to share this funny story to you.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And hopefully you’ll think about this. So the other day, one of my middle sisters, her name is Tammy. And Tammy, I would say, she may have been the brightest sibling. I really do. She was well read and she’s a great mother and her daughter’s about to be a physician’s assistant and her other son’s in vet school. And the girls had a cheerleader swimming party at the house. And we have this nice home now that I finally bought about four or five years ago. And I wasn’t thinking. It’s three acres and it’s real nice. And so I was just taking some pictures of my three daughters swimming with about 20 or 30 of their friends. And they’re jumping out of the pool into the hot tub and out of the hot tub into the pool. And we got this beautiful cliff and waterfalls and all this BS. And which, I have never been in the pool. How about that? That shows you how much I work. Right? That’s crazy. Right? And so.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And just out of the blue, so my sisters, we still have that little, where they tag us. And so it’s my three sisters and me. And then my clever sister sends me a picture of the swimming pool that me and my three sisters used to swim in front of that $10,000 home.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And it was those blue swimming pools that you still see in front of Walmart that now you wash your dogs in.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And I remember, and I was like, “Oh my God.” And then my other sisters were so funny about it. And she was like, “Wow, how times have changed. These girls just don’t get it.” Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I mean, we’re sitting there and my mom would put that little pool in the front yard. Right? Cars are driving by and I don’t even know how all four of us would fit in that little swimming pool and she’d get the garden hose and filling that thing up for five minutes. Right?

Luke W Russell:

Yep.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And we would just sit there and swim in that little pool all day. And now you’ve got these new generations swimming in these Olympics salt water heated ass pools. They’re door dashing out of their own damn phones. Right? And every 10 minutes, some guy on my credit card is bringing them, I mean, whatever they want. If they continue and this generation continues, maybe they’ll even look back and think they were in those type of weird swimming pools. I don’t know what’s going to be in 40 years. Maybe the pool that they’re in today is the pool that we were in back then. Or the house they did today is different. Or maybe all the conveniences that they have, I have no idea what the future holds for us. But I can always tell you that if I’m still living, I’ll try to figure it out.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. I love that. Alex. I want to hit you with two thoughts here. And then I want to get your response. First is, I want to read you quote from someone who deeply respects you. And I want to read it twice to let it soak in. And then I want to go back to what your dad said earlier. So your friend said of you, “He’s changed so many lives, but I don’t know if it ever registers with him.” So I want to read that again, “Alex, he’s changed so many lives, but I don’t know if it ever registers with him.” So I want to take that thought.

Luke W Russell:

And then I want to go back to what your dad, when you said, I think it was a week and a half ago on a Sunday. And he was like, “Alex, you need to live your life.” And encouraging you to stay healthy, enjoy yourself, and focus on what’s important in this next stage. When you think about what your friend said about your impact and you think about your dad also encouraging you to focus on what’s important to you and you look to the future, what comes up for you there?

Alexander Shunnarah:

Well, first of all, that was really nice. Whatever friend said that about me. I don’t think that I’m any different or any special than anyone. I think that anyone who makes the decision to, I guess, try to maximize the space that they’re in, meaning that they have a goal, they have a vision. The truth is, Luke, I have just metamorphosed into who I am. I don’t know if that sounds weird. I don’t know how to be anything else than who I am. I was, Freud would call it your Id. And so from the flea market guy to where I am today, I just have been on this journey. And I’ll probably be on this journey. And I’ve always said, until the day I die, right? Because I can’t see myself retiring.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And I think I probably don’t think enough. And because I think that’s because of just the way that I am and who I am. I don’t really sit around. I never sit around and say, “Well, how many different lives have I impacted?” I read this quote one time. I mean, Sam Walton met something over a thousand multimillionaires along his journey. For whatever purpose or reason, they just were in my path or voyage. And there was the connection. And so because of maybe who I am and what I’m doing on daily basis, they were able to latch on to the vision and the dream and to buy in. And then they had their own skill sets, also. Because I could just tell you that their gifts and talents to this organization and this vision and this dream are just as important. And.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

So they earned everything also. They earned everything that they have. And they’ve earned their success. I didn’t go to law school for any of them. I didn’t go to technology school for any of those people. I am just as blessed to have them in their life as they are in my life. Because of the way the landscape of a law business is changing, and we’ve talked about this, Luke, where I think the hedge fund money is coming in and the Wall Street money’s coming in. And, of course, we know what the digital world has done. I now can honestly say that, I think I need an exit plan because I think if there isn’t an exit plan for firms like myself, that eventually, you won’t be around because there is no trial attorney or trial law firm that can compete with hedge fund money.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I mean, there’s just no way. So you kind of have to continue like Darwin, I call it. Darwinism. Darwinism. You have to figure out how to stay in the space and understand you can’t compete in the space with that type of money. But you can be an integral part of the ecosystem moving forward and your skills and your talent. And so you say, “Well, what does all that mean? It is a bunch of jumbo.” Well, maybe there’ll be a hedge fund one day who says, “Hey, we’re going to come into America.” I’m just making something up. “And we’re going to deploy 25 million a month, Alex. We don’t really understand the space, Alex. And we think you do.” And I know I can’t compete with them and nobody can compete with him. Morgan and Morgan, nobody can compete with them. Ain’t no mass trial lawyer can compete with them.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Cause if they want to come in and spend, let’s pick up mass tort. That’s hot right now. I mean, people are still … I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know. 3M is still going on. Hernia and mesh, whatever. And let’s say the next one comes out. And let’s say there’s a mass tort company, excuse me, a hedge fund that says, “We want to billion dollars worth of those cases.” Well, how in the hell am I going to get any cases? Think of the house’s market. It doesn’t matter. You’re not going to compete with them.

Alexander Shunnarah:

I mean, BlackRock, they’re a $500 trillion company. And so my goal would be, not saying that they would want my services, but it’d be like, “Look, I’d like to stay in the space. I’ve been in the space for 30 years. I can’t compete with you in this space. But I tell you what.” I’m just making something up. “You give me $10 million a year and I’ll be happy as a lark, which is only like a dollar to you. And I’ll operate your campaign for the billion dollar campaign where you’re going to make a bunch of money.”

Luke W Russell:

Yeah.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And I mean, if they allow you to run that operation for or that project, I’m sure that you’ll get to stay at nice restaurants and work out and eat nice dinners and fly first class. And really, my life won’t change that much. Right? I’ll still be dealing with people. I’ll still be dealing with business. Yeah. I guess it’ll be the first time I’ve worked for anybody in my life. I mean, I have a price. I’ll work for you if you pay me enough money.

Luke W Russell:

Yeah. Okay. Alex, I want to fast forward 25 years. And it’s your 80th birthday celebration. People from all throughout your life are present. And someone starts with a gentle clinking on their glass and then a hush washes over the room. And people raise their glasses to toast to you, Alex. What are three things you would hope they say about you?

Alexander Shunnarah:

One, I would hope that they would say that Alexander Shunnarah is a real girl’s dad in every facet that. And it’s just not lip service. That from the time they were born till my 80th birthday, I have always been there every step of the way, loving them unconditionally, respecting their space, allowing them to grow up to be beautiful women. But always, when dad is needed, he’s there emotionally, spiritually, physically, financially. All those things we talked about earlier. And that that was authentic and true.

Alexander Shunnarah:

Second, I always wanted to get as close as I can, in regards of any conversation I have, any business interaction I’ve had, any opinion I have, to the closest that you can get to the epitome of truth. And so I guess I would want someone to toast me and say that Alexander Shunnarah believes that there’s only one person who was the epitome of truth, which is Jesus Christ. However, he in his human flesh and body and mind and spirit and soul did everything that he could to try to get as close to the truth in every interaction, statement, or anything that he did.

Alexander Shunnarah:

And three Alexander Shunnarah was a pioneer, a visionary, a game changer, an adapter, and a man who passionately worked towards changing the law space. And being a major asset to clients all across America in his 50 years.

Luke W Russell:

To learn more about Alexander, visit shunnarah.com. A few notes before we wrap up. Please check out our season three sponsors. Be sure to check out Jason Hennessey’s book titled Law Firm SEO if you want the best knowledge available in the industry. To any plaintiff’s attorneys who have clients in need of simple interest loans, check out the milestonefoundation.org. If you’d like to join a growing group of attorneys that are actively working to improve their trial skills, head over to trialschool.org. For personal injury lawyers looking to acquire big cases through social media, visit 7figurecases.com. And if you want to experience rich human connection, join our LinkedIn group by going to joinbettertogether.com. Thanks so much for listening this week. This podcast is produced by Kirsten Stock, edited by Kendall Perkinson and mastered by Guido Bertolini. I’m your host, Luke W Russell, and you’ve been listening to Lawful Good.